When “Healing” Hurts
Tune in for our first episode - an honest and vulnerable conversation about healing vs. curing, barriers to accessibility, finding belonging in church communities, and resisting normalcy.
Your hosts Jasmine and Keith are joined by Bethany McKinney Fox, a public speaker, contemplative, and the author of “Disability and the Way of Jesus,” and Matt Arguin - a Community Member with Wish to Be Home and an Associate Anglican Priest in London.
You can find Matt’s Prayer in Time of Pandemic at https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/35010 and Bethany’s book Disability and the Way of Jesus: Holistic healing in the Gospels and in Church here: https://www.ivpress.com/disability-and-the-way-of-jesus
Matthew Arguin is Assistant Curate-Coordinator of Outreach and Evangelism at Bishop Cronyn Memorial Church, Diocese of Huron, Anglican Church of Canada.
Bethany McKinney Fox is founder of Beloved Everybody, an ability-inclusive faith community in Los Angeles where people with and without intellectual, developmental and other disabilities, as well as neurodivergent folks, lead and participate together. She is the author of “Disability and the Way of Jesus: Holistic Healing in the Gospels and the Church.” She is ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA).
[00:00:05] [Keith Dow] Welcome to Disability and the Canadian Church, a podcast where we talk over the intersections of disability and the Christian faith in Canada and beyond. I'm Keith Dow.
[00:00:16] [Jasmine Duckworth] And I'm Jasmine Duckworth. We'll be your hosts and we're so glad you're joining us today. We're excited to learn from diverse voices as we welcome a couple of guests each week to share their insights and expertise on aspects of disability and faith. Our guests today are Bethany McKinney Fox and Matthew Arguin.
[00:00:43] [Keith] So Reverend Dr. Bethany McKinney Fox is a writer, teacher, and speaker living in Los Angeles. She coaches clergy and church starters with Presbyterian Church to the USA, their network, a 1,001 New Worshiping Communities and other organizations. She's also director of formation for Cyclical LA, a local church-starting network. She found beloved everybody an Ability Inclusive Church where people with and without disabilities lead and participate all together, which she led for several years. Her book Disability and The Way of Jesus: Holistic Healing in the Gospels and the Church, which we'll talk a lot about today, examines how Jesus healing in the Gospels, too often used in ways that wound people with disabilities might point a way towards real healing and mutual thriving.
[00:01:33] [Jasmine] Matt Arguin has served as an Anglican priest for the last 10 years. In addition to regular parish duties, the bulk of his ministry has focused on forming relationships with those in vulnerable populations. First at Bishop Cronan Memorial Church, then at St. June's and St. Alban the Martyr in London, Ontario. From December, 2020 until April, 2022, Matt worked for WISH, which stands for Winter Interim Solution to Homelessness, which provided emergency housing and basic needs for 30 to 60 residents at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. Most recently, Reverend Arguin has been providing interim Sunday coverage for clergy in the Diocese of Huron, while continuing to work on articles surrounding theology and disability. Published contributions include an anecdote in Bethany McKinney Fox's book and a Prayer in Time of Pandemic featured in the Canadian Journal of Mental Health Disability and Theology.
[00:02:26] [Keith] So before we dive into the interview that we had with and Bethany, Jasmine, what are some of the things that really stood out to you from our conversation with them?
[00:02:34] [Jasmine] I love the honesty and the realness of the conversation. Both guests brought some humour and some vulnerability and they really shared what was on their hearts, and I really appreciated that they were so open with us and I hope that listeners appreciate that as well.
[00:02:52] [Keith] Yeah, and you, you took the words right from my mouth. I think that that vulnerability is powerful and it's also such a challenge too, right? Because it's easy to, to talk a good game, but when it gets down to actually working in our churches and community for accessibility, for belonging, for following Jesus, like those aren't easy things. And being challenged on that can be so difficult, but lead to such transformation throughout our work too. So I appreciated the, those challenging moments as well as those moments that were joy-filled and helpful.
[00:03:33] [Keith] All right, well welcome Bethany and Matt. Thanks for joining us today on the disability and the Canadian Church podcast. We're so happy to, to have you with us and thanks for making the time. Today we're gonna explore the topic of when healing hurts, resisting normalcy, and so I'm sure there's all sorts of different avenues we can take to talk about that topic. And I know Bethany, you have a, a book out as well. So we, we have lots to talk about today and we'll jump right into it. What we wanted to start with though was, could you talk to us a bit and either one of you can go first about your connection with disability and faith. How did you become involved in this work and what kind of drew you to it or, or through you into it is sometimes the case.
[00:04:15] [Matthew] I guess I'll start in terms of being connected with disability. I myself am a disabled person. I'm a full-time wheelchair user. I have cerebral palsy, so you can say that I'm connected in a very intimate way in that sense. And then also in terms of being aware of disability and theology, it actually came out of a conference in Toronto that I met Keith and Bethany at, the Institute for Theo-- or what is it, Keith? I can't remember the actual acronym.
[00:04:50] [Keith] Yeah, the Institute on Theology and Disability.
[00:04:53] [Matthew] Yes, it's the Summer Institute on Theology and Disability. And that was back in 2014, I wanna say.
[00:05:00] [Keith] Yeah, 13 or 14. Yeah, it's a while ago now. It's amazing how time passes.
[00:05:05] [Matthew] Yeah. And so I went to that conference, it was like three or four days and made some connections, made some friends, and realized that theology and disability was a thing that you could actually discuss and talk about and read about and write about. So that was exciting for me.
[00:05:23] [Keith] Well and the bizarre thing about that, that time too and I think every year at the Institute, just discovering that there are so many other people that, that care about this intersection too and are willing to talk about it and be a little geeky about it as well and kind of know the different works and dive into some of those questions. So thanks for, thanks for sharing that. And what about yourself Bethany?
[00:05:43] [Bethany] Yeah, I think, I mean I think anybody who's alive and has connections with other people has disability in their realm, even if you're not born with a disability. But I think it didn't become really obvious to me or something I kind of thought about directly until I was in high school and had a friend with some developmental and intellectual disabilities. And I think, yeah, it was, it was a friendship that, you know, I think was really just enjoyable and healing for me in a number of ways. And so then as I got older and was in church spaces and did teach special education, which is what we call it here in the US, for a while, I think I wondered why our faith communities didn't seem to be places of hospitality or welcome, particularly for folks with intellectual disabilities. And so that was something I began thinking about doing a little reading about. And then like Matt eventually stumbled on the Institute on Theology and Disability and became part of a whole cadre of folks like you all. It's been lovely to get to know you over time.
[00:06:54] [Jasmine] So the two of you know each other already. I understand you met at the institute. Can you tell us, do you have any other overlap?
[00:07:02] [Matthew] I'm not sure, other than the book, I mean we, we've chatted back forth...
[00:07:07] [Jasmine] Forth. Tell us about the book.
[00:07:08] [Matthew] So Bethany sent me an email, I guess it would've been 2017 2018 'cause the book was published in 2019, right?
[00:07:18] [Bethany] That's right.
[00:07:19] [Matthew] Yeah. So it obviously whenever you're writing something it takes a while to develop and Bethany put out an email to a bunch of us basically asking for any firsthand experiences that we've had in terms of healing and disability and sort of just put out an open call. And so I submitted one and it ended up in the first chapter, which was kind of cool along with a bunch of other great stories who I've consequently met some of those folks and had conversations with them too.
[00:07:53] [Jasmine] Thanks. Do you wanna drop the name of the book here in case readers? Sorry, listeners, are wondering where they can read it.
[00:08:00] [Matthew] I'll let Bethany take care of that 'cause she's the author.
[00:08:04] [Bethany] Okay, sure. The title is Disability and the Way of Jesus Holistic Healing in the Gospels and the Church. Long and Descriptive.
[00:08:16] [Jasmine] Good book though I've read it.
[00:08:18] [Bethany] [laughter] Thanks. Yeah, so I felt like as someone who, you know, I think I have various areas of body stigma attached to me, but disability, I feel like it's a real fuzzy word. So I'm not sure that it applies to me directly though depending on context, it does apply to me. And so, but I did feel like it was important if you're writing a book on disability to make sure that people who kind of identify as disabled most of the time also have stories and voices in the mix. Even though the book was kind of theological and academic, it obviously is entirely incomplete without real experiences from real people, real people like Matt. [laughter]
[00:09:02] [Matthew] Aw, thank you, Bethany.
[00:09:05] [Keith] Well, and I think that's one of the things that I love about Matt's story and I was going back through the book today and yeah, that struck me as well, Matt, just how early on your story is I got a few pages in reviewing my notes and like, oh there's Matt. But that's one thing that strikes me about your story and just getting to know you over the years as well is how real you are. And I mean most people are real in like a physical sense, but, just like your willingness to engage with humour and candour is the word that comes to mind. But just like honesty, right? Just being direct and to the point and not beating around the bush. And, and so I really appreciate that in your story too, just sharing how you've encountered people who have interpreted healing in different ways and how that's sometimes can be quite destructive.
[00:09:49] [Keith] And, and as I was looking back over your story here, you, you talk about stifling a laugh when you're wearing your clergy shirt and your clergy collar and the the person with a big cross on them comes up to you and asks if you know Jesus, right? Right. And some of the, the stigma issues around that and the interpretation that's happening in the person's mind and the two beautiful things about that are a laughing, which I think is a perfectly appropriate response. And actually I may want to hear from you a bit on, on how humour relates to, to healing as well, but laughing and also stifling the laugh because, a, that's really hard to do and I think it shows your heart too that you were, you weren't wanting to laugh in the person's face even if they might have deserved it. So do you wanna maybe walk us through just briefly that, that story again and, and yeah how did, how did that transpire in your mind and as you, as you talk with him?
[00:10:42] [Matthew] Yeah, so I live in downtown part of London, Ontario and as with any sort of downtown core, you'll meet a whole bunch of interesting folks and some of them will have, you know, the very best of evangelical intentions. You know, they want to come and make sure that you know Jesus real good. And so that happened to me a couple years ago now, almost a decade heesh. And again, it's one of those conversations where, you know, I tell the story in the book, but it's not the first time that it's happened to me either. I think if you talk to anybody who is a wheelchair user or is disabled, they've had some sort of iteration of, of the conversation of somebody asking you, you know, do you want to be healed? And you're kind of stuck with this question of, well I've been living like this ever since I was a little kid, I don't really know any different.
[00:11:50] [Matthew] And you know, approaching it in a way that doesn't insult the question but addresses the question. I think that has always been my approach. Cause sometimes if you don't, if you don't use that approach, then people won't take you seriously or they, they'll try and rationalize what they've heard. And it was really interesting that the dude in the story and in other situations as well, the dude just walked away. He didn't know what, how to respond. And I find that part of the story interesting too because what does that say about the wider attitude around disability, right? If it's just something to be healed and that's it, you know, that's not necessarily a healthy way to be looking at things. So I, I want to try and find healthy, good, theologically grounded ways to look at disability.
[00:12:54] [Jasmine] You've mentioned healing a few times and that's in the title of this episode. Would each of you please like define for us, how do you think of healing? What's the definition of healing that you're working from? Maybe we'll ask Bethany to go first cuz Matt, you were just talking and we wanna make sure we keep it fair.
[00:13:14] [Bethany] Okay. I kind of wanted Matt to go first, but what
[00:13:17] [Jasmine] You can, you can defer
[00:13:19] [Bethany] No, it's, I don't mind. Yeah, I think healing the thing that is important to me in, in talking about healing is that it is the, the word holistic, which is in like kind of my book subtitle is super important when it comes to healing because I think we tend to, especially in cultures that are kind of biomedically focused or where bodies and things get reduced to kind of how your biomedical provider describes your body is who you are in a way. And so if you're sick, your identity is kind of wrapped up in your diagnosis or whatever your doctor tells you. And so I think that we tend to then think that healing means changing that aspect of your identity, right? Which means having a cure, getting some kind of bodily cure from whatever your doctor has told you has is awry in your body or brain or both.
[00:14:18] [Bethany] So I think that it's important for me when I think about healing, and I think if this is true in scripture, is to think about healing and cure as distinct categories that cure is kind of a biomedical category maybe and that you, maybe your cancer gets cured or maybe you're, you know, you get a cure for a different kind of thing. But healing is a, a bigger category that involves kind of shalom or a sense of wellness that may or may not include a physical cure. Certainly God is wildly free and can do whatever God wants to do. But I feel like, you know, I was, I was talking about this with somebody recently. We were talking about how someone can be healed without being cured. Meaning let's say your sense of self, your connection to God, your just overall wholeness, which is kind of connected to a whole lot of things, your relationships, your socioeconomic stuff.
[00:15:20] [Bethany] There's like your vocation, your sense of meaningfulness in life. I mean it's a huge, you know, to to say I feel whole and I, I don't think any of us are completely whole once we start naming all those categories, but in general having a sense of flourishing or however we wanna think about that, that you can be healed without necessarily being cured. Lots of us, lots of people have health conditions or disabilities or any number of things that are not cured, but yet we experience a sense of healing or grow in our social connections or our sense of our own connection to God or our bodies, those kinds of things. So that can be an experience of healing even without a cure taking place. And at the same time someone might be cured and actually not be healed in the sense that maybe they have overcome a disease or you know, their body has conformed to the biomedical category of normal and yet they still are disconnected from other people or they have a deep sense of unwellness in a different way. And so just recognizing that healing is like a multifaceted, multi-layered on lots of different levels sort of thing is, is how I think about it.
[00:16:34] [Matthew] So yeah, all of that for me, healing similar to what Bethany just said, making that distinction between cure and healing or wholeness and also the fact that healing entails being integrated into the community or welcomed back into the community, whatever the case may be. Usually that if you look at the stories and the gospels for instance, right, when the paralytic is healed, he's not only healed of his ability to walk, but he's also restored the community. If you think about the, the story about the Damani act that's living out in the graveyard, same type of thing, right? It's not just that he's liberated from demons, it's that he's able to return to the community. So that idea of being surrounded by a bigger group, a bigger community is really key for me I think. No, that's
[00:17:38] [Keith] Really helpful, thank you Bethany and Matt. And one of the things that strikes me, so both in the story that you shared, Matt, from a, a decade ago and on social media, sometimes you'll share about how you're going to work with the wish right? Winter interim solution to homelessness and you're, you're work being involved there in the city in, in London and trying to get, you know, help, help people and bring healing to that community. And yet you're often running into barriers, right? Whether it's snow left on the sidewalk in convenient ways or what have you. So can you talk to us a bit about what does, what does healing look like in that kind of a context as you're working in community settings to bring a kind of social healing there?
[00:18:27] [Matthew] Oh man, that's a, that's a big question. I think that for starters, recognizing that the communities are there, I think London is slightly infamous as many cities are of not recognizing that those who are struggling with homelessness do have their own community. They do have their own connections, they do have their own relationships and all of that is really important to hold onto. So when I, when I was working at wish, one of the main emphasis was to make sure that those community connections were being held onto, obviously in my context being at Wish it was in the context of sort of providing housing in the middle of the pandemic. And just to pick up on a, on a point that Bethany already mentioned was, depending on how you define disability and lack of access to resources, lack of mobility, lack of whatever, at what point does being homeless have the connotation of being disabled, of not being able to ha be able to access certain goods and services. What are some of the ways in which they're not able to interact with, you know, everyday communities that they need to be a part of. So being aware that A, those communities exist and B, that they need access was two really important things.
[00:20:18] [Matthew] And also making sure that as we worked with these folks, you were able to develop relationships with them as opposed to just working on their behalf, if that makes any sense. So we were really encouraged to, you know, when we were preparing meals and stuff to make sure we sat down with them, make sure that it was part of not just our job but our lives, which is a really difficult distinction to make, especially in a culture where we're taught about professional and medical distance. Both of those things come into play, but I think being able to have that vulnerability and that ability and willingness to be in community is really a central thing. Does that make any sense?
[00:21:20] [Jasmine] Yeah, I liked what you said about, I won't get the words as eloquent as you did about working with them and not just working on their behalf. I, that's a beautiful way to talk, show that healing in community, in relationship and that integrated community, which you talked about earlier in your definition of healing, that it's being integrated into the community again. Thank you. That was lovely.
[00:21:47] [Bethany] I think can I, can I, I think that's a really good point Matt, that there's a part of it. Can I pick up on a piece of it? I feel like something that it makes me think about is how, I mean I think about healing when people do it, it's really complicated or when people think they're doing it or want to do it when people are the ones doing it to other people think that they're participating in healing or something. It is a really like hierarchical exchange in a way. And it makes me think about all these questions. Like there are book, there's a book I think called like When Helping Hurts or When Healing Hurts or something there. And those are a lot of times tend to be about like missions work and things like that. But I feel like there's like an overlap when we're thinking about healing and when we're thinking about anytime we're thinking about something we're gonna do to like improve someone else's life, there is a way that it setss up this dichotomy of like, I'm the well one and you're the like messed up one and I'm here to like make you well.
[00:22:46] [Bethany] And I think what Matt, you're talking about with the folks that you were in community with in your work, it's complicated because we all wanna think that It's like, oh we're helping because we recognize on some deep level that our, like the wholeness of you and the wholeness of me are like connected somehow that it isn't like I'm doing this for you, but it is like your wholeness leads to my wholeness and that somehow those things are wrapped up in each other. And that's the thing I'm trying to figure out. Cause I just don't know that there's a way that we can think about part being heal. Like I guess I'm thinking about the God healing people versus people thinking they're doing healing and this and just if there's any way to actually do that or think about participating in healing or being healers in a way that isn't, doesn't have that gross feeling of like, I'm above you and like, how sad for you that you're so unhealed and let me help you. I don't know, it feels complicated.
[00:23:51] [Matthew] Yeah. And one, one thing that bubbled up for me as you were talking about that one thing that I remembered and it's still a really big problem, is that when you're dealing with people who are vulnerable and struggling with homelessness, one of the things that is most challenging is a lot of them don't have id, right? And you need ID in order to access government services and you know, all kinds of different stuff to be on lists for affordable housing, all of that. But even on a more deeper level, not having id, right, how do you identify yourself when nobody recognizes who you are or you know, the, the paperwork gets lost in the mail, so to speak.
[00:24:42] [Matthew] I think that is one of the things that really struck me too because as somebody who's, you know, white middle class boy ID and having access to it was never really a thing. I always had something on me to be able to access the things that I needed. And when I was working at Wish, one of the things that really opened my eyes is that, you know, this is not true for everybody because if you don't have paperwork and you don't have id, you can't open a bank account and if you can't open a bank account, how are you supposed to have access to funds and things like that. So I don't know if that's connected in any way to what we're gonna talk about the podcast, but I think it was really interesting to recognize that and to recognize that, you know, what we take for granted sometimes is just givens or is not the case.
[00:25:36] [Bethany] And, and in terms of that Id point, I mean that's like kind of a, the metaphor of that is really powerful. And I do think about how in the times that Jesus interacted with, you know, people with disabilities of various kinds, kind of one of the things I talk about in the book is that one kind of trend among these interactions is a clarifying of identities of the person who's being healed, right? That Jesus often uses language of kinship for example, like when in an interaction like this, like it will like son or daughter or you are also like a child of Abraham kind of using this language to say who you're not this kind, you, you have an identity and your identity is that you're part of this family and someone who has faith and someone who belongs. And I think that, you know, there's the reality of like actual practically getting people IDs so they can do the things they need to do, which is super important. And the work of like not just having that id, but also knowing that what your identity is rooted in is, you know, in a place of belonging and in a place of a community that loves you and values you.
[00:26:54] [Keith] And maybe let's, let's pick up on that theme. You've both done extensive work as leaders in your local churches and you know, trying new things and, and I think that's where we see the, the hopefully the practicality and the identity piece come together, right? Where ideally the church is a place where people are reminded that their children of God, that they're beloved, that they have community that they, they belong to and where practical needs are met, right? Where we can come together and and identify those different needs and, and meet some of those things. But Bethany, you have a quote early on in your book where you say that, and I really value the stories that you share from people with lived experience, but you say how they've expressed how unhealed they have often found churches, quote unquote healing practices to be is both baffling and heartbreaking.
[00:27:44] [Keith] The followers of Jesus seeking to heal as Jesus healed would be creating communities and practices that are anything but healing for many people with disabilities. And so we could, we could share, I'm sure lots of stories that back up your point here, but maybe if we were to take it the other direction, like what are some, what are some, and either of you can speak to this, what are some signs of hope that you see in Christian community? Where do you see the possibilities for our future, Matt and the Canadian church context or, or Bethany? I know there's lots of overlap between our communities as well. So how do you see it working itself out? What can we, what can we do towards that?
[00:28:21] [Bethany] I guess the, the hard thing for me is the question about glimpses of hope I feel like is too strong for me right now. Honestly, that phrase, having led a church of people with and without disabilities, intellectual disabilities in particular for a number of years, I think that and, and seeing how difficult it actually is for people without intellectual disabilities, to regard community with people with intellectual disabilities as something fun and genuinely worth it and not just a form of ministry. It was extremely hard. I mean, I, I just, I was baffled at the amount of ableism that actually exists. I'm not baffled by the amount of ableism that exists, but I mean I think it was quite heartbreaking for me actually to see how I feel like I'm a pretty good communicator. I could explain to people without intellectual disabilities that we are in this together, that we have just different ways of communicating and learning, but we're humans and friendship is possible and blah, blah blah.
[00:29:33] [Bethany] But yet most people without intellectual disabilities cannot get over the fact of regarding community or spending time with people with intellectual disabilities as work or ministry to actually see people with intellectual disabilities as peers or potential friends in a real way. Not like the way some Christian ministries use the word friend, which really doesn't mean friend at all. It just means patronizing helper. Like I think that glim, I, I want there to be more glimpses of hope and I do feel like there are a few, like I said, but I feel like I got so tired trying to like convince non-disabled people, you know, people without intellectual disabilities in particular that cause. And I always thought, well if you just come here and you experience it, you'll see this is like beautiful and actually fun and like, and I think some people did ex have that experience, but I was just so discouraged by the level of ableism that's so deeply rooted in people that they couldn't overcome the idea that someone with an intellectual disability is anything more than someone they need to help or serve. And I'm like still discouraged about it and I want to see more glimpses of hope, but I i, I don't really see too many
[00:31:05] [Jasmine] Thank you for your honesty. It's hard to say those things and to verbalize sometimes I know there's a tendency to feel like we always need to be positive and upbeat and looking to the bright side, but I think that there can be prophetic truth in talking about our heartbreak and the things that grieve us as we work through spaces of faith. And so thank you for for bringing that because I think it's all part of it, right? It's all part of moving forward and finding that healing you. You can't always heal unless you deal with the things that are causing the grievance that are causing, if you go back to your biomedical idea, you sometimes you need to remove the thing that's causing the illness or the the pain in order to make space for a room, make space for healing and growth and forward movement. So thank you for for naming some of those things, calling them out in us and in people listening hopefully we can do a check of our own hearts and minds and find places where we can remove some of those ableist tendencies we might hold and make space for something good to take root instead. Matt, what about you? Do you have any, any grievances or encouraging glimmers of hope that you've been seeing?
[00:32:27] [Matthew] Well first of all, again thanks to Bethany for actually bringing those thoughts, those feelings, those realities to the fore because like you said, I don't think it gets talked about often enough in terms of the frustration or at least vocalizing it. So that was really awesome. Thank you for that. I will say that glimmers of hope and also to pick up on what Bethany was saying, one of the great ironies of my life is that working at Wish was probably the most accessible workplace that I've ever been in and that was two retrofitted construction trailers with like janky ramps on the front, you know, to get in and out. And those were in terms of workspace and in terms of work environment, that was definitely the place where I felt most independent, most respected, most recognized as being able to to do the job. And that was really surprising to me.
[00:33:39] [Matthew] So knowing that there are glimmers of hope both in and but also outside of the church was really important for me just working at WISH in general. Now in terms of the church itself, in my denomination, which is Anglican in my context, which is the Canadian church, I will say that in terms of leadership and in terms of ordination and in terms of visibility, the church is actually getting much, much better in recognizing the leadership qualities of those who are might be considered disabled, might have to use mobility aids and things like that. Whereas when I was a kid, I mean that was just never, never even part of the equation. I actually started off as Roman Catholic and was told that I wasn't able to go through ordination stream cuz I couldn't be able to get up to the altar, you know, and that was like when I was 18, 19. So just in the space of like 15, 20 years it, the church has, has recognized that there's people willing and able to to be in active ministry, specifically ordained ministry and it's no longer as much of a barrier even though you'll definitely still have hurdles to go through in terms of convincing people that yes you can do the job, yes you are, you are able to, to be a leader although you might need some accommodations along the way.
[00:35:31] [Matthew] I think that has been a beacon of light for me and I, I'm just thankful that it's no longer just an automatic no if that makes any sense.
[00:35:43] [Bethany] Can I, I would, this is where I feel like the conversation and the language of disability is sometimes insufficient because I feel like there's two different conversations around accessibility in leadership cuz I feel like the conversation is really different for someone with kind of physical or mobility disabilities versus someone with maybe significant intellectual disabilities and leadership. And I think the word disability is such a broad diverse group of people that is like sometimes have almost nothing in common with each other in terms of either bodies or brains or lifestyle or anything. But I think that, I love that the ch that you are experiencing the church being more accept like accessible and open to the possibility of having kind of ministers who use mobility aids and different things like that. And I think I've seen that too though though as you also said, there are still a lot of ableist notions.
[00:36:42] [Bethany] It's, it's in no way perfect and there's plenty to still do in that regard, but I think about it's part of it is like as long as someone can lead in a way that we think what a leader should do, like you still have to be able to be really articulate and you still have to like have advanced degrees and you still have to do these various things. You know, there's still like a way that it's harder I think sometimes for people to think of like how could someone be an ordained minister who maybe doesn't use verbal language to speak how to, would someone be an ordained minister who doesn't read? Is that possible? How could God use that person in leadership? I mean I've experienced that in my life and in our community, but I think that that is the piece where I think people's imaginations are still in need of some growth and some, but hopefully what you're talking about Matt, is this shows that there's some movement and maybe there'll be more waves of that to include the broader diversity of people who are disabled in different ways.
[00:37:50] [Matthew] And I, I think that distinction or or that ability to recognize that disability is this like huge umbrella term that we just kind of use for a lot of different things is really important because that also informs whenever you, you are talking to churches in whatever denomination, in whatever context is to make sure when you're talking about disability, at least pair it down at least, at least have some framework around, well what are we talking about? Are we talking about the physical access to the building? Are we talking about leadership? Like being, being able to, to take this huge term and and bring it down to earth I think is a little, is an important step.
[00:38:41] [Keith] I don't know how familiar each of you are with Debbie Kremer and her model of a limits model of disability as well, but I think that even expands the conversation a little further, right? From disability maybe being a physical characteristic or an intellectual characteristic or what have you, or the stigma associated with it. Shocks about how each of us experiences different limits, right? And I don't want to equate that with the, I don't even wanna say it out loud, but the everyone is disabled kind of mentality. Cause I think there are some really unique and important things about how disability is, is used and engaged. But as I think about limits as well and having coming through, hopefully we're heading to the other side of this pandemic, but we experienced a lot of limitations through this time, right? And churches experienced a lot of limitations in terms of what was shut down and what people could or couldn't do.
[00:39:34] [Keith] And I, in a way that was really hard, but in a way I think it presented a lot of possibilities to say how, and you talked about imagination, Bethany, how can churches reimagine what it means to be the church? And if you can take away all this structure and all the things that we used to do and still have a kind of connection, a kind of church happening, right? With within those limits, how can we reimagine for the future? How can we think about new ways of doing church? And I think you're starting to, to get at that when you talk about things like ordination, like who can be a pastor, who can be a minister, who can minister to others. I think these are all really powerful questions that we need to look at. Where do our current models or current ideas of who can minister to others or who is a recognized minister to others, how can we question those and unsettle those so that more people can use their gifts and contribute them to community.
[00:40:30] [Keith] And so I know that's, I don't even wanna call it a project, but that's, I think it's a, a task for the church in the years ahead not to see leadership or pastoral ministry as belonging to a certain normal idea of what that's looked like in the past. And I know this is a, a huge, a huge question, but how do we, how do we start to do that? How do we start to recognize gifts of other people in our congregations? And they may not have an official or formal role or maybe we can think of what that role looks like, but so we can say, I see that God is working through you in this community and I just wanna recognize that and encourage you in that and, and say that you are a beautiful part of, of God's work here. How do we start to do that?
[00:41:14] [Bethany] So one thing that comes to my mind immediately, I think about, well from our community, I'll start with a couple of quotes. Like I feel like somewhere Stanley Hawa says something like, I don't remember if he's talking about about children or people with disabilities in this quote specifically, but he is talking about how certain people, when they don't fit in with the way that we do church, that we can either kind of respond, this is like a huge paraphrase. We can either respond by saying, oh you need to be different to fit into the way we do our practices. Or we can say, oh, this person is revealing the limits of our practices. Now we're seeing that our practice actually doesn't include everyone. It actually isn't something that's accessible to the diversity of bodies and brains that God has created. And so we need to like evolve to and, and it's like a prophetic announcing of our limits.
[00:42:13] [Bethany] And I, I was just yesterday watching Judy Humans memorial service, she's like a disability act was a disability activist here in the US and the people sh she was Jewish and the, the leaders of her synagogue were talking about how like, oh whenever we saw a voicemail from Judy Human on our thing, we were like, oh no, how do we screw up this time? We gotta make a change. And I thought, how, what, how? And they were so like in a way, you know, you could tell they were kind of like, ah, but they were also like, thank you at the same time because you know, as churches we, you know, change is hard and like to have to like adjust things does take effort and thoughtfulness and like energy that sometimes feels in short supply when you're leading a church. But at the same time to be able to at least have the framework to say this is a gift that's actually been given to us because you're, it's like the canary in the coal mine, you're showing us that this thing like, I hate that analogy though actually cuz the canary like dies in the analogy.
[00:43:15] [Bethany] So maybe, maybe a different analogy, but one word it's just like someone is saying, Hey, this isn't working for me, which is actually illustrating that it's probably not working for a lot of other people too. This is just the person who's giving you the gift of speaking up about that, or not even necessarily needing to speak. I think about a practice in our community. This was pre pre covid when we were on Zoom then for a while, but before we were on Zoom and in person, there was someone in our community who it was not good for them really to be touched or hugged though this was not something they could express themselves. And so we had to kind of figure out, all right, how can we communicate this in a way that kind of keeps this person safe or supports them and what their needs are, but also, yeah, so how, how, but they, but when they can't necessarily articulate it themselves.
[00:44:12] [Bethany] So we came up with this whole, I think I borrowed it like actually from Mensa when I was like googling online, but it's like a name tag system which is color coded like red, yellow, green with levels of touch that feel comfortable for you. So when you would come in and get your name tag, there would be like a description to say, you know, what each one of those means and you would put the sticker on your badge. And so that ended up being something that lots of people benefited from in the community. People talked about how their children were really help, it really helped them to have that, it really helped them to be able to explain what consent looks like. There were all these ways that people, or they, they just had it cold or they don't like getting hugged but they have a hard time saying that.
[00:44:53] [Bethany] I mean, but they were, there were people in the community that really appreciated this practice that became a part of what we would do together. And it grew out of, and I'll, I think this is where I think what we call leadership is, is a little bit limited because I feel like it was this person's leadership in our community really just by them being themselves and having a particular support need and us needing to figure out how to navigate that led to a way of us forming our community that ended up being really helpful to a number of people. And so I feel like churches can respond to those kinds of things where something isn't working for someone. And so then you kind of get creative. And I'm not saying that that's how everyone should do it and I think there's adaptations that can take place, but just recognizing that when someone comes up and says, this isn't working for me, you can either be like, ah, I'm so tired of this person complaining. Or you can say, oh okay, this is an invitation for us to adapt our practices to make them more welcoming and accessible to the diversity of people God has made.
[00:45:59] [Matthew] And I will say that in terms of recommendations, Bethany has a very helpful section at the end of her book that says, these are some of the practices that may be helpful. So I would encourage folks to check those out as well.
[00:46:15] [Jasmine] Thanks Matt for that recommendation. I also endorse Bethany's book and I know you're talking about the very end of the book where she has some like practical like practices people can do. But just before that she has seven marks of healing in the way of Jesus. The first one she talks about, sorry, I should talk to you Bethany, the first one you talk about a positive reception on the part of the person receiving the healing and that's the one Matt, that Keith was talking about your story earlier about the person who approached you while you were wearing your clerical collar and asked if you know Jesus. But there was a, a healing co component to that conversation too. And, and you stifled your laughter and Keith pointed to how that was a, a positive reaction. But can you just talk us through that a little bit specifically around, I understand the man wanted to know, do you know Jesus, but he also wanted to talk about do you wanna be healed and how you received that, how you felt that and how you responded.
[00:47:14] [Matthew] Yeah, so in that particular instance, you came up to me and asked me if I knew Jesus and I said, yeah, I might, you might say that I work for him. And sort of the conversation continued a little bit after that and eventually we, we got onto the topic of my disability and he says, well, wouldn't you know, don't you want to be healed? Or I think in, in the wider context of, of the conversation, it was, you know as well if you, if you believe enough, God, God will heal you. And sort of, I, I took that and I eventually said to him, well I, I don't think that God will just magically heal me. I don't think that's how that works. And also, you know, I think actually that God might have made me this way and that's what sort of caused the confusion and, and caused him to not know what to say and he ended up walking away because for him that was the end of the conversation. And so that led me to a whole bunch of reflection on, you know, why being disabled is not this terrible thing. And that sort of plays itself out both in the story and in the rest of Bethany's book.
[00:48:41] [Jasmine] Matt, I understand that you've talked in other places I've, I've seen videos of you, you're talking about seeing your disability as a gift and how that was a process and a journey for you. And you just alluded to that right here that it led you to reflect on how being disabled isn't necessarily a bad thing. Do you wanna speak any more to that, that process you've had of seeing your disability as a gift?
[00:49:02] [Matthew] Oh for sure. I think 'cause I'm now 40, I was born in 1982 and so when I was born with cerebral palsy, a lot of my childhood was focused on physical therapy. It was focused on occupational therapy, having orthopedic surgeries to make sure that, you know, I could be as mobile as I possibly could. And so for a long, long time, both as a child and as a teen, my CP was something that had to be overcome, improved, whatever word it is that you want to use. And it wasn't until I got older as an adult and more specifically when I attended the conference in Toronto, that I was able to start thinking about my disability as something that was integral to who I am and you know, what I offer in terms of my ministry to the church because before that it was all about just how do I make it so that the church can accommodate the wheelchair?
[00:50:16] [Matthew] How can I make it so that I'm as normal as possible in the eyes of the church? And then like I said, after that conference and being exposed to all kinds of different people and all kinds of conversations, that's when I was able to start integrating it. And that was like well past my, my teen years and into my early adult years, you know, and I think that process of unlearning the ableism is something that everyone with a disability has to go through at some point, or at least I should say, you know, in my case for a physical disability, I, it was definitely something that I had to unlearn. I don't wanna make blanket statements for everyone.
[00:51:02] [Jasmine] Thanks for sharing that. Bethany, did you wanna comment anymore on any of the marks of healing in the way of Jesus that you outlined in your book?
[00:51:15] [Bethany] Well I think just the reason that the, the very first mark is that there's a positive reception by the person, you know, receiving the healing. Part of the reason that that is first is because, I mean it is a genuine, you know, when Jesus interacts with people in the gospels and in the healing sort of way, they at worst are kind of neutral after the experience, but mostly are positive, they are worshiping God, they're grateful they become a follower of Jesus. There's some kind of positive reaction most of the time. And as Matt outlined in his story, when this random man came up to him and was like, Hey, let me tell you why I think your body is wrong and I can pray for it to be un wronged, that that was not received positively. I know shocking that someone coming up and telling you your body is messed up is not something that feels awesome.
[00:52:14] [Bethany] But so I think that, you know, people k have are kind of good intentioned in a way. I think that people think that they're doing something caring. And part of that I think is because they, you know, especially if they're Christians, they're looking at what Jesus did and feeling like what we need to do is follow Jesus by going around and like curing people. And so I think recognizing that actually though if you're doing what Jesus did, it should be having these same kinds of effects which are that the person in the end again is feeling good and not feeling bad. So if you have an interaction with someone and you think you're doing some kind of healing and the person feels worse, maybe you're not actually healing in the way of Jesus. And I think that --
[00:53:05] [Matthew] You're not doing the job,
[00:53:07] [Bethany] Yeah. So that's why it felt really important for that to be part of the equation. Because part of doing this contextual bridging between, you know, obviously Jesus is operating in the first century Mediterranean world and we are in a really different context. So part of realizing, you know, what does healing in the way of Jesus look like today means we have to kind of do some contextual translation, right? No one's spitting in the dirt and rubbing mud and blind people's eyes. I hope they're not doing that. And so we realize that we're not just kind of woodenly doing the things that Jesus did, but we have to also notice as Jesus functioned as a healer, what were the outcomes of that? How did that, how did the context respond? And so we would want our context to respond in a similar way, which means that, you know, disabled people are being integrated and affirmed and not feeling wounded after a healing experience, a quote unquote healing experience.
[00:54:08] [Bethany] So, so yeah, just wanted to name, that's why it's first cuz I've heard way too many stories like mats where people who are just trying to get their groceries, suddenly someone wants to tell them that they can walk again and they just, you know, and I think it's just really, it's, I think it's hard too because, and you can say more because you, you were talking to Matt about the process you have had to go through in your own life of internalized ableism and what it's been like to overcome that and recognize that maybe God intended and created your body in the, in as for all of us in the way that it is with intention and purposefulness and love and all of those things. And that learning process is really hard. And so for someone to kind of come up to you when you've gone through this journey with God of helping to recognize and receive your body as a gift and for then someone to come up and say, you know what? Your body is not a gift, is just really a way of not kind of supporting and affirming the trajectory God actually had you on of healing the healing trajectory God already had you on and someone is doing something that's genuinely unhealed in the name of healing. And so I think that's why I was like, front and centre -- positive reception by the person receiving healing.
[00:55:31] [Matthew] Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, there, there's a lot of things that go into that. Keith, you talked at the beginning of the podcast about having humour and, and being able to recognize that, you know, sometimes humour is the only way that you can respond in a given situation. Cause otherwise it's just sad. But also more importantly to what Bethany was saying too, I recognize that that dude was well-intentioned when he came up to me, he wanted me to be, well now our definitions of what it meant to be well were different, but he wanted what he felt was good and, and right. And, you know, loving. So recognizing that intention is, is really important.
[00:56:19] [Keith] But I think a lot of times we act as though we do and our, our best of intentions kind of translate into imagining what life is like for somebody else and imposing our own view. And by doing that, we're actually bypassing this relationship that we already have with Jesus, right? We're kind of saying, I know better. I don't need to listen to Jesus. I don't need to listen to this other person. I'm gonna go in there and and minister to them. Right? So I appreciate the way that each of you have really highlighted how we are all seeking to follow Christ together and how do we do that in community. And you've spoken to the, the comedy of that tragedy of that, the drama of that, right. And hopefully we can learn to do that better together. I'm wondering if you can point us to whether it's stuff that you're actively doing these days that you wanna direct people to, or resources that you found particularly helpful just as we close off our time together.
[00:57:13] [Matthew] Sure. Right now, as you probably mentioned in the bio, I'm doing some interim work for parishes, just sort of doing the regular Sunday stuff. And then also in terms of writing, I'm working on a, on a concept piece right now. It's not fully formed in my head, but what, what trauma is, how we define that and sort of how that has an effect on the way we think about disability. That that's sort of my main interest right now, my main focus. So that's what I'm writing on right now.
[00:57:52] [Bethany] Yeah, I feel like for me, some of my work around disability is a little indirect these days. I feel like after kind of moving on from leading Beloved Everybody, which is the church that I started, partly because of the heartbreak of some of what it was like to lead the community and experience the ableism of the world, I feel like I'm taking a little bit of a breath and not doing, I'm a little bit turling or I don't know if that's like a verb, but in a little shell. And so I feel like a lot of the work that I do these days has, is with church starters across the country, particularly in the Presbyterian church USA but also other denominations and people both locally and nationally. And so I think thinking about innovative ways that people are choosing to kind of start new kinds of church communities and gather as Christian communities is something that's really interesting to me.
[00:58:49] [Bethany] Both connected to disability and just connected to a wider range of people who, for right now, church is not working for them for all kinds of reasons. And so disability is one of those reasons, but I think that I'm really being encouraged and doing some work in innovative church spaces and figuring out what does kind of gathered Christian community look like going forward since I think, well, I I think that the, the traditional kind of church is, is gonna die. And so I wonder what is gonna be reborn. And I think as Christians we're resurrection people, so I'm actually excited to see what kinds of new communities will come from the ashes. So, so that's, that's where I'm thinking these days.
[00:59:39] [Keith] If you like today's episode, please take a moment to review us on Apple Podcasts or other platforms. It helps people define this podcast. And why not share this episode with a friend? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Send us an email@ministrychristianhorizons.org.
[00:59:56] [Jasmine] This podcast has been brought to you by Christian Horizons and is part of the New Leaf podcast network. Christian Horizons is a faith-based organization out of Canada. We serve people with intellectual and developmental disabilities in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and in several countries around the world through Christian Horizons Global. You can find more information about us at christianhorizons.org. Special thanks to Tim Bratton and to the New Leaf Podcast Network team and to you, for listening.