In this episode, Sara Pot and Tom Reynolds share their experiences with religious education in universities and the Christian school system. In this conversation about spiritual formation, disability, and art, Tom and Sara talk about how they’ve seen churches do well in the area of religious education and what might be done differently.  

You can read Sara’s column in The Chistian Courier at christiancourier.ca/author/sara-pot-columnist. To learn more about her work visit canchild.ca, and to follow her on Twitter search for @SaraPot3.

Tom’ s book A Vulnerable Communion can be found at  bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/vulnerable-communion/269870 and his article Care in the Messy Middle  in the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health, and Disability jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/40813/31194. You can email him at tom.reynolds@utoronto.ca

[00:00:05] [Keith] Welcome to Disability and the Canadian Church, a podcast where we talk about the intersections of disability and the Christian faith in Canada and beyond. I'm Keith Dow.

[00:00:16] [Jasmine] And I'm Jasmine Duckworth. We'll be your hosts and we're so glad you're joining us today. We're excited to learn from diverse voices as we welcome a couple of guests each week to share their insights and expertise on aspects of disability and faith.

[00:00:38] [Keith] Today we're talking with Tom Reynolds, who's an associate professor of theology at Emanuel College of Victoria University in the Toronto School of Theology and the University of Toronto. His teaching and research explore a range of topics related to Christian engagement with diversity in a global context. He's especially interested in inter-religious dialogue, creativity, and disability studies, which in different ways express his life, experience and passion for hospitality and reconciliation in the world. He's published numerous articles and two books, his second book, Vulnerable Communion: A Theology of Disability and Hospitality, reflects on his life as a parent of a child with disabilities and envisions a church with a wide welcome. Tom also plays jazz piano and can be found playing at his Toronto Church and occasionally on the local Toronto scene.

[00:01:28] [Jasmine] Sara Pot is the Communities of Belonging Liaison with Edvance Christian Schools Association and an education lead with Can Child, a research center dedicated to generating knowledge and transforming lives of children and youth with developmental conditions and their families. With these professional experiences and primary role as parent and caregiver, Sara has developed a passionate interest in child development, family engagement, and the tension of reconciling faith and disability. Some of her musings can be found in a monthly column with Christian Courier. Keith, what struck you from our conversation with Sara and Tom today,

[00:02:05] [Keith] I found it compelling just how engaged each was in this topic, and you can tell it's something that they've spent their life kind of invested in, whether it's from their own personal perspective in relation to their families or in their work contexts, different school settings, what have you. And so I love the perspectives that they can bring and it makes me think that there's much more to this conversation too, right? How do, how do churches work alongside Christian schools where learning can happen between them? And how can churches and Christian schools learn from some of the advancements and questions that are being wrestled with in the wider world too. That it was an important reminder that we don't always have to do things going forward the way that we've done them in the past. And I love the thought of creative spaces where we can work with each person, work with one another around this, this experience of awe and wonder and receptivity to the way that God wants to work in our lives. What about you, Jasmine?

[00:03:08] [Jasmine] I liked watching the dynamic throughout the interview coming into it. Sara and Tom hadn't met each other. They were maybe aware of each other's writings, but this was the first time that they had a conversation and I really enjoyed seeing them get interested in what each other had to say and kind of going off script of the questions we'd prepared to just genuinely ask each other questions and have a conversation. And I hope that the audience gets to enjoy that as well, just seeing that dynamic grow through the interview. And now let's go to the interview on disability and religious education.

[00:04:02] [Keith] All right, well, we are excited to dive into our episode. This podcast episode is about disability and religious education. And I know religious education to me sounds like kind of a formal term and it, but it can cover so much, right? When we think of education, we think of how we're formed, how we're raised, like the different things we learn about how we experience God, how we engage with others, with their experience with God. And so I think there's a lot that we can get into and I'm excited to talk with Sara and Tom about this, this aspect and this intersection. So let's, let's start there. Actually, we're hoping each of you can tell us about your connection to disability and religious education. I'm sure we'll fill that out a bit as we go along and have a chance to talk about some of the different aspects of it. But yeah, Sara, why don't you start us off? What's your, what's your connection to these topics?

[00:04:58] [Sara] Well, it's interesting when you talk about a connection to something, often it can be a one time it experience, but for me the, my connection with disability and religious education has been really from since birth in different ways. So I was schooled in the Christian school system. I am the daughter of a pastor and I went to Christian Elementary school, a Christian secondary school and a Christian university. And so that was my education and upbringing. And at the same time, my family was very much involved with supporting persons with disabilities, family members. I grew up visiting the institution in Woodstock, Ontario, Oxford Regional Center or however the ORC or something like that. Anyways, I remember as a child experiencing the institution life and thought it was fascinating, not obviously recognizing some of the darker side to it, but my parents were also respite, a respite family for persons with disabilities, young children who would come and stay in our home.

[00:06:09] [Sara] And then I had a personal connection with my cousin Chantel Huinink, who works for Christian Horizons and watching her grow and learning from her experience living with cerebral palsy. And now fast forward to when I became an adult where I guess I'm still becoming an adult and becoming a parent, and I now am the parent of four and my younger two have really propelled me into, well they've put me into the, that intersection of faith and disability because our, my younger two I share with my husband Ralph, were born with a very rare syndrome, in fact, so rare that our geneticists decided to name the syndrome with his name, including our family and two other families in the world, Rachel and Yanika. Now teenagers have this rare diagnosis and it impacts their whole life, their complex care needs, their medical needs, and they are also intellectually disabled.

[00:07:12] [Sara] So being a parent and a caregiver has really just put me in this position of thinking through almost everything that I came to understand as a child and as a young adult and wondering how disability fits into my practice of my faith. But also at the same time going into the field of education as a teacher and thinking, well, what does disability look like in practice in a Christian school system? And my husband and I are both involved in Christian education. I currently hold the position of communities of belonging liaison and that what my work includes is supporting Christian schools in welcoming students with disabilities. So I can't give you a really short answer to that question because it's been woven through my entire life since birth and I'm still living it with it. I'm still thinking about it a lot. And I think I still have way more questions than answers in, in relation to my experience.

[00:08:15] [Keith] Well, it sounds like a really good place to start and I love just hearing about all the connections you have and the work that you've done already. And, and the podcast as a whole is about disability and, and the Canadian church, I know you've been quite involved in the province and different places in Canada as well around this topic. And so I think it's gonna be really helpful to think about how do we work together between church communities and Christian education communities and universities as well. Tom, as we get to you and, and those different questions and how they intersect. So let's turn it over to Tom. What about you? What's your, what's your connection here?

[00:08:53] [Tom] Yeah, well, first of all, it was great to hear about your journey, Sara, and how it brings you here. Cause I like the image of woven into your life and it's really, I, I guess I'll think backwards because I went to a Christian university, you know, I was involved in church, basically youth group since high school. But disability kind of came to me in the birth of my oldest son who is diagnosed with autism syndrome and accompanying kind of complications. And that forced me and compels me actually to rethink everything. And so I like the way you ended, you have more questions and answers that feels the same for me. And really it's about living the questions and, and, and the journey of relationship with others in the church and God. And it, being a parent actually opened up my own past to me because I was in then called special education classes myself and didn't really reconcile that side of me.

[00:10:02] [Tom] I eventually learned how to accommodate to the school and found myself in university. My grades were poor until I found something I was passionate in. And so it opened up my own life. And I, you know, I think it's helped me advocating and caring with my son, reconcile myself with my own journey with depression too and anxiety disorder. And so I'm speaking more about that, which didn't come up in the book cause I, you know, when I was in each phase of my journey, I'm open to new things that I'm engaging and new ideas. And so it's really a whole part of my life woven into every fabric, including the creative part of my life. And I'm a musician too, and I find the musical creativity thing opens up possibilities for me to rethink about what community is and rethink about how to journey in life with unexpected surprises all the time. And so I do, as Keith mentioned, I teach at a theological school at the University of Toronto. And it's also prepared me and opened me up to the many ways the students I encounter learn and kind of breaking free of a kind of one size fits all and, and opened me in marvelous ways that I look forward to talking about and maybe learning together. So hopefully that's a little bit about my story.

[00:11:29] [Jasmine] Can you tell us a little more about that, Tom, as a university professor, how has you just hinted that your understanding and experience with disability has helped shape the way you teach and interact with your students. Can you just expand a little more about how your experience has influenced the way you, the way you teach?

[00:11:47] [Tom] Sure. I, I'm not trained in religious education. I've sort of learned in a, you know, a step-by-step process of experience and then taking, you know, workshops and all sorts of things. But for me it's, it's an attitude that fits with disabilities, complex embodiment. It's, it's a way different bodies and different brains inhabit the world and there's no one, you know, fixed human nature. The kind of neurotypical is the language and the, and autism that, and, and it's opened me to the fact that there are differences. And I like to say in class actually there's wisdom in this room and it's opened me to the wisdom that each person brings to a class, which sometimes comes in different learning styles. And so I'm much more sensitive. I think the more I do this, you know, I learn too, but to diverse learning styles and open to the different places people are in their life journeys and the different connections.

[00:12:57] [Tom] Cause the proximity to disability, if not, if a person doesn't identify with one, it's usually one or two. Proximity to disability is, is a very prominent fact of our lives together. And students, you know, have family members or they themselves present with all kinds of what would be called disabilities. And so yeah, it's, I guess it's opened me to be flexible, adaptive, improvise, but most important, be open to the wisdom that enters a room. I mean, there is deep wisdom in the room and if I'm open to how that presents itself in some of the unexpected surprising ways, it's astonishing what can emerge in a class. So that's what comes to mind when you ask that question. But

[00:13:46] [Sara] It's a great question and I've just really appreciated Tom, even just what you've been sharing too, cause I could hear you. It's almost like saying that we're trying to reclaim the word disability and to see it for its beauty in all of the different persons that are with us and around us. And that disability is not a tragedy, but that in fact, disability is, is just, is part of who we are. And being able to then be alongside each other, you know, figuring out life together. I feel as if that's been part of my journey too, in, in beginning to truly understand how disability, it creates so much more opportunity and possibility to see the diversity in our, in our beautiful creation. And thinking too about how that relates to the environments in which, for instance, my children are in. Whether they're learning or they're receiving treatment, whether they're receiving therapy or interacting with peers. What's been so interesting is that there's never one, there's not just one way or one place or one configurement for -- configuring for this. One of the things I've learned is to be flexible and to learn, to be okay with some of the uncertainty that comes as I am trying to support a school and creating a learning environment as I'm trying to support my own children in their learning.

[00:15:22] [Sara] I think of how we talk often about God creating order out of chaos. And I wonder sometimes if we then have misinterpreted that to be then therefore we get to order the chaos, we get to label and sort it, you know, bringing to mind, of course, John 9 when the disciples were like, well they see this blind man and they right away ask Christ, well who sinned? Why is this man disabled? And I like to take it back to the beginning around if our creator brought order, that might just mean that then therefore everything has purpose and meaning, but it doesn't mean that everything is sorted or certain even. And that actually relates to even how we create school and how we create a learning environment that we talk more about being a community of learners and what that actually might look like is gonna change based on the persons that are in the room. With my own children and their intellectual disability.

[00:16:23] [Sara] We've concentrated a lot on social connection, less academic connection, and that's really shaped, you know, even my conversations with educators when they're asking about meeting the needs of students and having them just actually step back for a moment and think like, what is the, what is the destination? What's our end goal? What's our vision for supporting students in a learning environment? And thinking about just some of the bigger concepts around what it means to learn and live in community. For my own children too, they are non-speaking and rely solely on others to support them. So if they wanna move from room to room, they need someone to move them from room to room. So we've learned a lot about the importance of creating peer mentors, peer support, and trying to bring the adults in the room into a new understanding often of what it means to learn and live.

[00:17:22] [Sara] I find in my conversations with educators that there's a lot of dialogue around their own interpretation of disability. Just last week I met with a group of teachers and it was interesting for us to unpack how they really felt that disability was a very sad word. And I said, but that's so interesting because obviously your experiences have shaped you thinking that way. But then understand that if we don't work to cultivate a new understanding and develop a mind shift, that negative lens in which you're seeing disability is going to impact how you're gonna support the students in your classroom who have a disability

[00:18:00] [Tom] That is rich. And I just, there's so much in what you just said, Sara, that if it's okay, I'd, I'd, I would love to ask and and talk with you a second and maybe go off script if that's okay. Keith and Jasmine.

[00:18:15] [Tom] Yeah, you, I I love the idea of, of it's actually the parents and the teachers that, that have to relearn and, and I think of that as a failure of the imagination to see disability as a tragedy, something gone wrong in God's good creation rather than being a part of God's good creation is a real journey. It's a real task, at least in my own advocacy work. I see that all the time bumping up against low expectations, oh, somebody has disability therefore they have all these needs that somehow the community has to address rather than all these opportunities for growing together. So I I really, I love that. And you said something about uncertainty and it struck me that it's connected to Keith's point earlier about humility, it's almost a spiritual journey to be uncomfortable with uncertainty, to admit one doesn't have the answers in advance. And like the disciples in John 9 -- who sinned, they thought they had the moral fabric of the universe all figured out, you know, well disability is a curse, there's somebody that did, you know, and if you read job, God nullifies all of job's, friends and their answers. And no, I just wanted to riff with that. That's a beautiful, beautiful way of talking about education and it sounds more holistic. Is that sort of your intent to kind of a holistic education that's about belonging. It's not just about, you know, an intellectual curriculum.

[00:19:44] [Keith] Yeah, I think that's, that's really helpful and I love that image and that saying of there's wisdom in the room, right? There's wisdom in this room and how how can even that, that posture, shape our communities in different ways, right? Sara, you started by talking about the questions that we have and so when we bring those questions into a space, when we bring the difference into the space, the humility into a space, I think that in itself changes the way we approach learning education one another. You mentioned community, Tom. That's beautiful. I think that's a great, great way to start. And so Sara, you've done a lot of advocacy and work in the Christian school system and then as well with raising your kids. What are some of the environments that you have seen your kids really grow and thrive in when it comes to learning, whether it's learning about God or learning more generally?

[00:20:39] [Sara] Mmm, yes. And I find that that is something that you almost have to sit with and wrestle with for a while, particularly if as an educator you have been schooled in the idea of creating independent learners. And so one of the things I also like to say to educators is are we creating independent learners or are we creating interdependence in our community of learning? And I would, I would say firmly that scripture supports that vision of interdependence in a community of learning. And for whatever reason, we have kind of leaned into wanting to find patterns and milestones and markers in creating these independent learners. And my fear is that it leaves no room for the beautiful diversity that is right in front of us in what's being created and what matters. And it is interesting because I think some of the hesitation to embrace that comes from a fear of the unfamiliar.

[00:21:41] [Sara] When a student presents with some significant challenges that are not familiar to you as an educator, you're more inclined to say, you know what, no thanks, can we just, can we send them over to that person or that room or that team? And it's almost as if we're gonna ask you to try to sit with that tension for a bit. I think for example of when I have spoken with educators around the sensory needs, and we talk about, it's not just five senses. In fact, there are so many senses, but I like to focus on eight. And when I talk about the three that are often new to some of the listeners around proprioceptive, interceptive, and vestibular, when we start to talk about that and have a conversation, suddenly it's almost like there's light bulbs above their heads going, oh, that helps me understand, you know, so and so, and completely different light. I didn't realize that they had a heightened proprioceptive sense. I just was getting frustrated with them with constantly touching and hitting things. And so there's that education that's also required for educators, for the adults in the room around understanding just a broad, like just having a broader sense of what it means to be a person, to be this complicated complex but amazing creation.

[00:23:07] [Jasmine] It's been so interesting hearing you talk about the schools and I like that you were talking about, it's not just about the academic, but also the social and that interdependence. And Tom, you talked about imagination earlier. It makes me think of, my mom has been an educational assistant in the school system most of my life. And so a lot of her job has been helping the kids from the, you know, special education classes be integrated into the mainstream classes. And from the stories I've heard from her, it seems that they have the most success integrating often into arts classes, drama, visual arts, music. But I also know that those are often the programs that are like always kind of possibly gonna be cut for funding because they don't have the same priority in society as the more, you know, quantifiable subjects like math and language.

[00:24:04] [Jasmine] But I see that the stories that they have so much success integrating there because it's very relational. They can connect, they can learn things in new ways, and like you said, Tom, there's a wisdom there and they can bring, you know, the wisdom that they have about their embodied experience of the world to drama or music or art or whatever it is, and be on a more equal playing field with the other students. So what role do you guys think that the arts can play in the relationship between disability and education and then maybe even expand that to religious education? How do we, how do we connect these things together to make sure that people are getting involved in these interdependent communities of learning and are able to use their imagination and bring their wisdom into the religious learning that we do in Christian communities? And how does art fit into that? Maybe Tom, you can go first.

[00:25:01] [Tom] Wow. Yeah, I, I mean I, I wouldn't have, I think Sara's better equipped to answer the specific features, but for me, my whole, I teach theology, my whole theology is being reoriented around the fact that I think we're called to be creative and I think creativity is part of bearing the image of God and God is a creative God. And that's been so underemphasized and creativity is not to go with what you said, imposing order on, on alleged chaos. You know, it's not, I think sometimes the in theology, even the word meaning gets thrown around like we're meaning makers. I'm thinking if that's all we are, that's just about imposing structure. I think we're also about vitality, so that's become a good word. We're a meaningful vitality, the joy of being alive. And for me, creativity touches that. And I teach a class in creativity and theology, so, which we just finished this term and it's very interesting to watch students come alive.

[00:26:09] [Tom] Even theology is a boring topic for, you know, elitist academic types. And then they come to this class and they realize that no, my love of creativity is itself invested with theological capacity of connecting me spiritually, connecting me with others. And I love what you said, Jasmine, about the way of connecting because it's in a co-creative act. And I often think of ordinary classroom conversation or the conversation that we're having as creative, we're improvising together, we're learning from each other, adapting and pivoting and even working in this term, we had some people that were involved as crafts, doing crafts, really talented people that recognized and the communal nature of craft in what they do, getting textures that rely on other people and connecting with people and the way that their art built connection within the community and the relational side to that is really prominent.

[00:27:15] [Tom] I, I guess for me too, when I think of creativity, it cultivates attentiveness and focus. There's been a lot written on this, but it's more than just intellectual capacity. It's a whole holistic sensory engagement with the world and with others. And I, the attentiveness doesn't, you know, I've, I've seen it in various communities. It's not just neurotypical attentiveness, it is a variety of ways I journey with my son who's very gifted in certain kinds of ways and creative and you know, I see that happen there. So I, yeah, I, it's a shame cause a, as a musician I see programs cut and I see the power of music in particular not being available to people, to not just to express their individuality and connect with others, but to cultivate their imagination, which actually can be a factor in mathematics. You know, there's books written on physicians from physics people and quantum mechanics that talk about creativity and envisioning. So it, the sciences aren't just about quantification, they're about creativity. And so I, I see it as fundamental and yeah, I would be eager to hear what you think, Sara, in terms of integrating that in an educational format.

[00:28:43] [Sara] Well, and I certainly would not disagree with you on it being fundamental. Absolutely. Creativity has to be embedded in the things we do, the way we live, the things we teach, whether it's in a educational setting or elsewhere. So I think also of the power of curiosity, right alongside creativity is the importance of being curious and thinking of like, well I've not, I have never thought of it that way, or I never thought I would see it like that. You know, when we talk about concepts, and I'm reminded too of with my own children, they're non-speaking and how much we equate, you know, verbal communication with intelligence or verbal, verbal communication somehow has, there's almost like a hierarchy in that if you communicate verbally, you are there for just that much more up the ladder, so to speak. And yet obviously persons who use American sign language, persons who use any sort of visuals to communicate, are often sharing so many incredible things that the rest of us who use verbal communication are missing.

[00:29:54] [Sara] I think of the power of the arts, so music, drama and visual arts as being just, just one more window into our amazing world. And that when persons who use, you know, persons, when people use different ways to communicate, for example, through the arts, we're catching so much more that we would otherwise miss. And it grieves me to see those programs cut because it's like we are cutting off a form of communication with each other and communication is critical to creating community. I think of, for instance, with my own children, their response to music, they actually meet with a music therapist on a daily basis. A friend of mine by the name of Mendelt Hoekstra, who has a Zoom call with young children and adults all across Ontario, and it's a half hour Zoom call where they are singing together and it's powerful. And they formed this community a virtual community through music. Then I think of other individuals who don't have the ability to communicate verbally, but then the messages they create through their artwork is just, it's in, it's just incredible. I remember watching a particular documentary or I can't recall the individual, but they were showing some of their experience through their artwork, and it brought me to tears in a way that if someone were to tell me about it using their words through their mouth, I would've missed, I just would've missed so much that was evident in what they created from their medium.

[00:31:38] [Sara] Again, I think I would just go back to saying, I think we, it's like cutting off an arm when we cut out the arts because the arts provide that opportunity for communication that is so critical to creating community with everyone. When we don't offer the arts, when we don't create, when we don't leave room for that curiosity and creativity, we are missing persons that should be in community. We're creating a, we're creating a very tight sort of circle that is hard to penetrate.

[00:32:13] [Tom] It's really interesting. There are studies of awe and wonder that the capacity for awe and wonder, which come in a variety of shapes, open up the possibility of, of curiosity and communication that's nonverbal, that comes in multiple sensory frames. And it's almost like when you cut out the arts, you cut out what nurtures awe and wonder in life, which then nurtures curiosity and the openness to be surprised. And you think about becoming a community of belonging, if we're not open to surprise and the unexpected and learning from each other, belonging ain't gonna happen. And so the arts in a certain sense, as I hear you, sort of become like the fundamental piece there in terms of nurturing the capacity to be surprised and curious about it. And there's the uncertainty and unknowing too. We almost need a discipline of unknowing, unlearning what we think we know in order to be more ablely to receive each other. And artistry is about belonging, you know, the art of belonging too. Anyways, thank you for sharing that.

[00:33:23] [Keith] Yeah, Keith, here again. So Sara, you mentioned a phrase earlier that I think is really helpful and it's being schooled, being schooled in a particular way. I think of maybe the, your typical sports ball arena, whether it's a basketball court or whatever, where like you got schooled is kind of the, the way that that can come across. And I, I think it's really helpful here, Tom, you were talking about the art of unlearning, right? And it's really difficult to bring in some of these ideas to talk about art and creativity if we're just trying to layer it on top of something that's already been established, you know, it becomes an addition, an add-on, an extra, something that can be cut due to funding, whether that's due to kind of the STEM focus that we find in, in university. I've also heard it STEMB, if you add business to that as well, right?

[00:34:14] [Keith] The kind of what can be looked at as more practical, like tangible approaches to things. And so I, I wonder, we've talked a bit about all and wonder here. So I wonder how some of those values shape our churches, our spaces that are supposed to be, or we'd like to think are driven by scripture or by, you know, the value of what Jesus is doing in, in our communities, but it's so often shaped by these other factors. Tom, you've used a phrase that the cult of normalcy before and I think that's really, that's really helpful. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna read a quote here and you, and this gives you -- I know you didn't write this to sound smart, but it's just so helpful and in framing what you're talking about here, and you say, "the cult of normalcy takes the exchange values associated with bodily appearance and function. ..."

[00:35:14] [Keith] So that is how useful, productive or valuable certain bodies are. And in particular social exchanges we've been talking about interdependence and the so sociology of this, I don't know if that's word that's not, that's not what you wrote. And you go on, "and it routine routines them through systems of power and associated rituals. It takes these socially constructed attributes of value from particular situations and holds them up as standards for all people's bodies. It makes them seem natural and even ideal." And so I wonder how our church communities have been shaped by these ideals, how, how they've been shaped by normalcy and how that maybe prevents us from being open to, to awe and wonder in life how that can prevent us from being open to surprises. Sara, you were talking about order, how much of our church communities are driven by our idea of what order looks like in the world? And so I know we're not gonna to solve this today, but I'd love to hear from you what are some of those things that we need to unlearn in our church communities? And so we'll have pastors and laypeople and leaders listening to this and advocates, what can we do to start reshaping our, our communities of faith?

[00:36:35] [Sara] Tom, I'm gonna leave it with you first.

[00:36:37] [Tom] Oh, I was just about to say go for it, Sara. Well, I think they're five easy steps. I don't know about you, Sara, you know?

[00:36:45] [Sara] Yeah, right.

[00:36:49] [Tom] Yeah. I mean, I, it really is astonishing when the church is invited to be the body of Christ in the world to incarnate the care and the love that Jesus exemplified, that the spirit, you know, the fruits of the spirit are embodying. And yet the church can be a place that actually reproduces the very dehumanizing and constrictive, you know, what would be the word? Un-artistry, you know, the kind of things that are not artful and being belonging together. And yeah, one of those would be, you know, Keith, you said it and Sara earlier, the obsession with order and that order looks like a standardized, a repeatable, routinized process that people can then just expect to be the same every time. Worship, rather than being open to creativity in the multiple ways that disability appears in the community and, and doesn't fit standardized assumptions of what it means to be human.

[00:37:58] [Tom] And so I, you know, I think productivity, efficiency, you know, speed, intellectual capacity, you know, self-interested behaviour that, you know, even so-called democracies allegedly rely on, you know, assume a notion of the ideal subject, which is really problematic. And I think the church could be a vehicle, one vehicle mo among many that pushes back at that by opening up to surprise more to opening up to the spirit's lively work and differences and maybe a bit of chaos that can be generative. You know, I've read a lot of biblical scholars talk, the chaos wasn't a dangerous chaos, but maybe it's full of potentiality. The chaos itself is generative and, and working with it, okay, you'll laugh at me, but it's like jazz music, you know, you're sounds chaotic, but actually musicians are responding to each other and improvising together and sometimes, not always, there's no guarantees. Beautiful things emerge. So, and often the church obsessed with order and it's routine can actually prevent the lively work of the Spirit. I, I don't know, Sara, if that resonates.

[00:39:19] [Sara] Well I do actually love jazz music. So you're speaking, yeah, like when you say it's about like jazz music and I think, yeah, it's a, about holding that tension between a desire for some framework, some kind of structure, but allowing for surprise and allowing for some flexibility. And I guess it's like holding the tension between structure and relationship because people matter, relationships matter. And so then, you know, sometimes I wonder what's being amplified or what's being highlighted, the structure or the person when it comes to things like, you know, a church and its order. I do think too about people in their learning styles that, you know, when we talk about learning styles, there are some of us who really need that predictability, that consistency, that they know what to anticipate. One of the things we talk about in relation to supporting students with anxiety is to have a visual schedule or to have some ability to anticipate what the next thing is.

[00:40:25] [Sara] And so I can appreciate order in that respect, and yet I also believe there to be then that place for understanding creativity and understanding to be surprised by what might happen in that particular day. I think of that word messy. It comes up often around what it means to do life together, to do church together, is that it might be messy and to be content with some of that complexity. But in my experience and in listening to sometimes to people talk about church structures, that just seems so intimidating to think about embracing some messiness or embracing some complexity. And I must admit for my, in my own experience, I was raised, you know, with my father as a pastor, but my earliest memories of him being in church was that he actually led what were called friendship services back in the early 80s.

[00:41:32] [Sara] And it was his intention to see persons with developmental disabilities and persons with physical disabilities be included in worship. So I am not disclosing my age. I am reaching half a century. So I'll let you figure out the number. But my earliest church memories, I'm so grateful for the experience of what my dad really wanted to see happen is that everyone is a part of worship. Everyone is a part of church. And so I grew up with, you know, some drama at the front with, you know, people yelling out in church. That was just my -- that's what I remembered. But it's so interesting then going into other churches and visiting with other denominations, listening to how other people have worshiped or grown up with worship and realizing that for some of our congregations, visuals are a no-no, everything is scripted so that it's so tight.

[00:42:33] [Sara] There's no wiggle room. Like there's no wiggle room. And those are not places that I can bring my children. My children are very, will make build their non-verbal in their communication. They use their voices to make sounds. So we're going to be that noisy family sitting in the church. And for some of our kids that I know too, they respond to what they see in a visual whole lot sooner than what they hear with their ears. So I guess I, I just think there's something so important about holding that tension between structure and relationship.

[00:43:10] [Keith] That's really well said. And I think one thing that stands out to me in that tension is the question going, going back to questions. The question of what drives the way that we do things? Is it, is it because we've always done the things this way? Is this because we look around us and this seems to be the way that the churches operate? Is it, is it something related to scripture that we feel like this is the way that, that God is asking us to do things? Is it the people in the community and kind of responding to the needs of each learner? We're all, we're all learners, right? Responding to the needs of each learner and kind of, I don't think negotiating is the right word, but working in that, working in that space, right? Because as you say, for some people that structure the predictability, the, the schedule is really helpful and important, right?

[00:44:05] [Keith] So it kind of goes back to me to what is, what is driving this and is it just the normal way of doing things, quote - unquote the way that we've always done things? Cause I can't point to one way of doing things and say that's the way that everybody should do things. But I can point to that and say, that's probably not a good reason to be doing the things that you're doing, right? So maybe it, maybe it comes to that openness and I, I am hopeful, maybe less so now than at the start of the pandemic, but that, that that break that people experienced through that time is an opportunity to recalibrate and say, why are we doing what we're doing? Is this still working? And was really, I would say generative space for communities to explore What are some new ways of doing things? Who are the people that we're connected with? Who could we be connected to that were maybe not already? Who could we reach and be interacting with and learning from that we haven't been, so far? So I don't have a specific question in there, but I don't know if there's anything that you've seen through that, that that has been helpful.

[00:45:11] [Tom] Hmm. Well, I think the pandemic in a sense invites recalibration. Maybe it's, maybe it's the call to be disciples that animates the vision of being church and what that means to be to one another. You know, having the same care for one another. Not same in a universal, you know, uniform way, but having care, greeting one another as tabernacles as holy ground. We take off our shoes. Going back to Sara's point about relation, you know, to honour the divine in our midst, in and with each other and the differences. And maybe that means fishing on the other side of the boat. We've been fishing on one side of the boat and not catching fish. So, you know, going to the other side of the boat and the pandemic is a, it's a good way to maybe think about what, who are we called to be?

[00:46:07] [Tom] Who are we summoned to be? And often that summons comes through the relationships that present in a community and invite, you know, being together, being with and new ways. I appreciate the tension, Sara, that you mentioned too. You know, it's for some, and I, I can be one of those people that likes predictability and my son will tell me that too. It's not about you dad your way, it's about, you know, this is what I want and, and, and yeah, it's so it's not just getting rid of order. Cause in some sense that could be protective boundaries, produce safety, you know, but at the same time being open to how the different mix of people in a context invites a new way of being. And so for me, what drives this, I guess the longer I'm thinking about this, it's discipleship and maybe there are things that emerge and being disciples together that invite new things.

[00:47:11] [Sara] Well I think in that piece around learning new things, and we had said earlier too about creativity and curiosity, I find too that sometimes when it doesn't feel very organized or it feels almost too complicated or messy, that I just wanna sit and listen for the lament. Like I don't want to miss hearing something that I would otherwise miss if I'm in something so structured and so ordered, that I think we forget that if we lean so much on that idea of pattern and order, that we're gonna miss a lament that's actually being shared in the messiness and we're gonna miss the lament of someone we would otherwise maybe not interact with. And learning then along that idea of discipleship, what it means to care, to be kind and to be with each other in that in sense, in a community, in a community for living, in a community, for learning is one of the things I think about too is that we're, we're in this together and we're all learning together.

[00:48:28] [Sara] And that, and I think Keith, you've written about this too, that sometimes when it comes to bringing in new ideas into church, that we almost try to like insert them, that then someone or someone's talent is there for the impact on us like that for instance, persons with disabilities then are going to inspire us or edify us. And I think that is just so wrong. And so then when we hold that tension between structure and relationship, we learn that it's about being together in this space and being alongside each other and that we all have something to share. And there are, there are joys, there are laments, all of that is being expressed. We need to leave room for hearing all of that.

[00:49:21] [Jasmine] Thank you both. You've shared so much. As Tom said, there's wisdom in this room. You've shared so much wisdom with us today and I know we've hinted at the places where you work and have shared, we've talked about your book, Tom and Keith quoted it, but could you each take a minute to tell the listeners where they can find your work and where they might find more of your wisdom and be able to track along with you?

[00:49:47] [Tom] Go ahead Sara. I'll follow up.

[00:49:51] [Sara] I must admit, I'm trying to think of where exactly you could learn about my work cause I do a lot of freelance work. So for instance, I will come and speak and help facilitate or share information. I am not an expert, but I like to think of myself as a bridge builder, creating some connection between persons or connection between persons and information. I do keep a monthly column at a newspaper called Christian Courier. So there's a monthly column there where I write a little bit about my experience around faith and disability with my family. And I also have been exploring just more innovation and creativity with, it's a research center based out of McMaster called Can Child that c - a - n - c - h - i - l - d. And I'm sure there'll be a link in the show notes, but yeah, you can find me fairly easily. But I also like to be in that weird space called Twitter and I don't have a strange handle. So if you just look up Sara Pot, you can find me and we can engage there.

[00:51:03] [Jasmine] Awesome. Thanks. That's pretty straightforward. Sara Pot at Twitter. Yep. What about you Tom? Where can people find your work or find you?

[00:51:11] [Tom] Yeah, like Sara, I, I do a lot of speaking and freelance workshops and I'm really interested in cultivating the imagination of belonging together. And I, my book Vulnerable Communion is, is a more academic kind of book and the story of that and how that book emerges, I was in the middle of rethinking everything from the ground up thinking nobody would care to read this. So it's fascinating that along with some other really yeah, amazing people. That book has been helpful. So Vulnerable Communion, if, if people would like to check it out. There's articles like, speaking of messiness, I just wrote an article Care in the Messy Middle where I sort of talk about my journey with depression and caring with my son and, and the need for lament. So it's interesting. Sara, you mentioned that and that's in the Canadian, it's a free journal, it's the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health and Disability.

[00:52:11] [Tom] And there's some other things that, that are online in journals that I do, but, and I, I've not Googled myself, but sometimes there's talks, I don't know if those are accessible, but I would invite people to reach out, you know, my email Tom.Reynolds [at] utoronto.ca if they wanna connect. I love conversations and Sara, I would love to continue conversation with you and actually the four of us we're in different places, but we should meet somewhere and, and continue this. So yeah, I'm happy to be in touch, but I don't really have anything immediately available, yeah,

[00:52:48] [Jasmine] Well, I can recommend both of you to our listeners cause Sara, I've read your articles in the Christian Courier column that you mentioned and they are just wonderful. And Tom, I had the pleasure of hearing you speak at a conference last year where you used your jazz musician experience and a keyboard to really like drive home the theological points you were making. And it was, it was a very memorable session, so definitely can recommend that people should look you both up in all those ways you mentioned. Thank you so much for chatting with us today. We were so glad to have you here and to learn from you and to hear from your experiences. And yeah, hopefully maybe one day we'll get to meet in person, but until then, thank you so much for being our guest today.

[00:53:36] [Keith] If you like today's episode, please take a moment to review us on Apple Podcasts or other platforms. It helps people to find this podcast and why not share this episode with a friend? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Send us an email at ministry@christianhorizons.org.

[00:53:54] [Jasmine] This podcast has been brought to you by Christian Horizons and is part of the New Leaf Podcast Network. Christian Horizons is a faith-based organization out of Canada. We serve people with intellectual and developmental disabilities in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and in several countries around the world through Christian Horizons Global. You can find more information about us@christianhorizons.org. Special thanks to Tim Bratton and to the New Leaf Podcast Network team and to you for listening.

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