Join us for a lively conversation with Chantal Huinink and Ray Ellis about accessibility, self-advocacy, advocating for others, and the importance of relationships.  

 Both Ray & Chantal have written for the Disability and Faith Forum at www.disabilityandfaith.org You can learn more about Our Voices Matter at christianhorizons.org/ourvoicesmatter. If you’d like to get in touch with Chantal, Ray, Jasmine, or Keith please email ministry@christian-horizons.org

Chantal Huinink is a motivational speaker, author and social justice advocate. She is Coordinator of Organizational and Spiritual Life for Christian Horizons and has founded Faith and Wheelpower Ministries. Chantal is a Christian Reformed chaplain and a Waterloo Regional Councillor.

Ray Ellis is a member and leader of the of Ottawa/Kingston chapter of Our Voices Matter, a self-advocacy group. He represents his local chapter at the Our Voices Matter Council, which is made up of self-advocacy leaders from across Ontario. Ray has a long history of self-advocacy and leadership. He loves politics, being involved in his community, and wants people to know that his disability means he can’t speak or walk but he does enjoy having fun! 

[00:00:05] [Keith] Welcome to Disability and the Canadian Church, a podcast where we talk about the intersections of disability and the Christian faith in Canada and beyond. I'm Keith Dow.

[00:00:16] [Jasmine] And I'm Jasmine Duckworth. We'll be your hosts and we're so glad you're joining us today. We're excited to learn from diverse voices as we welcome a couple of guests each week to share their insights and expertise on aspects of disability and faith.

[00:00:39] [Keith] Today we're speaking with Chantel Henick and Ray Ellis. Chantelle is a motivational speaker, author, and social justice advocate. She's a coordinator of organizational and spiritual life for Christian Horizons and is founded Faith and Willpower Ministries. Chantelle is a Christian Reform chaplain and a Waterloo Regional Councillor.

[00:00:59] [Jasmine] Ray Ellis is a member and leader of the Ottawa Kingston chapter of Our Voices Matter, a self-advocacy group. He represents his local chapter at the Our Voices Matter Council, which is made up of self-advocacy leaders from across Ontario. Ray has a long history of self-advocacy and leadership. He loves politics, being involved in his community and wants people to know that his disability means he can't speak or walk, but he does enjoy having fun. Keith, what stood out to you from our conversation today with Chantel and Ray?

[00:01:27] [Keith] So I found it really helpful to think about the work of advocacy, not only how much effort that involves, but the different things that are at stake in a community setting. How does that work? How do allies come alongside people? How can I be a part of that work without trying to take over or do too much interpretation? And then how does that fit within church communities? What, what's the role of the leader? What's the role of, you know, other people who are in the congregation? How do we all come together to make it a space that is really welcoming and invites that kind of advocacy and celebration of people's gifts? What about you? What stood out from today?

[00:02:08] [Jasmine] Something Chantel said about that it's kind of a constant teeter-totter feeling for people that might have access needs. There's a debate, an internal debate being like, is this something I should speak up about? Or is this something I should just power through on my own? And that internal debate can go on for quite a long time before they actually might decide to speak up. And so that when people do speak up, it's important that others listen because they're not speaking up lightly. And I know from previous conversations that I've had with Chantel and Ray, that Ray has felt that internal struggle as well. So, I really appreciated hearing her articulate that today 'cause I think it's an important lesson.

[00:02:51] [Keith] And now to the interview.

[00:03:09] [Jasmine] Hi. Welcome everyone. We're very excited to have you here with us today, Ray and Chantel. Do you wanna each say hi? [Hi.] Awesome. So everybody's had a chance to hear. Keith, do you wanna say hi too?

[00:03:23] [Keith] Oh, I sure would. Hello everyone.

[00:03:25] [Jasmine] Now everybody's heard of voices and they can tell us apart. Before we get into the content, let's talk a little bit about our voices and how we speak because this podcast is a little different than some of the others in this series because Ray, you don't speak out loud with very many words, correct?

[00:03:42] [Ray] Right.

[00:03:44] [Jasmine] You do use yes and no very frequently. So do you wanna let the listeners hear what a yes sounds like?

[00:03:50] [Ray] Yes.

[00:03:52] [Jasmine] And can you let them hear what a no sounds like?

[00:03:55] [Ray] No. No.

[00:03:57] [Jasmine] Awesome. And you and I have done a lot of presenting together and we email back and forth all the time 'casue you type using the headrest on your wheelchair. And so we email frequently and then we use that information to speak together. And you've emailed us a lot of answers in advance for today, right?

[00:04:19] [Ray] Yes.

[00:04:20] [Jasmine] And so every time we do a presentation, we start by explaining that we consider it co-speaking because you give me your words in advance and then you borrow my voice to say them out loud. And so a lot of what we end up saying is a mix of my words and a mix of your words all coming out of my mouth. People need to know it's both of us that created it.

[00:04:42] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:04:44] [Jasmine] Cool. Alright. So let, maybe we should let people know how we know each other and how we got connected for today. So Chantel and Ray and I, us three, we had a reading circle during the pandemic and we would get together each week and read books and talk about it and get to know each other. And so it felt like a natural connection to have you both together on the podcast because you know each other well. And you have a lot of similarities in terms of your passions around access and advocacy, which is what we're talking about today.

[00:05:20] [Ray] And politics.

[00:05:20] [Jasmine] And politics. That's right.

[00:05:22] [Chantel] We have a mutual, mutual lover politics.

[Ray] Yes.

[00:05:25] [Jasmine] Absolutely. All right. So let's start. My first question for you guys is how have you advocated for yourself and for others? So Chantel, do you wanna talk first?

[00:05:36] [Chantel] Yeah. So I was born with cerebral palsy and through my life, my mom always encouraged me to advocate for myself to remember that I was meant to do and access anything that anyone else was meant to access. And she very early on instilled in me if there are holes or broken pieces of the system. Part of my mission was that God would empower me to fix them or make them better. And I know part of my training is in ministry. The other part of is in social work. In social work, we're often trained to make sure that we don't have a personal vested interest in what we're advocating for. And while I see the logic of that, because you don't wanna benefit personally from something that you are paid to do or supporting others to do. At the same time, I have found that coming from an issue with a sense of personal experience and that ability to speak, speak into, it's often what captivates people's interest at first. And secondly keeps them listening long enough that we can make a difference. So whenever I'm advocating, it's usually out of something that firstly impacts me, but that I know will also impact others. And I try to broaden whatever cause I'm striving for to make sure that I'm not the only person benefiting.

[00:07:24] [Jasmine] Awesome. Thanks, Chantel. And Ray, we have the same question for you. How have you advocated for yourself and for others? And so for this, would you like me to help you answer that?

[00:07:36] [Ray] Yes.

[00:07:37] [Jasmine] Okay. So you're currently the, you're in a local self-advocacy group called Our Voices Matter, Ottawa Kingston. Yeah. And then you represent that group at a provincial council of self-advocacy groups.

[00:07:53] [Ray] Yes.

[00:07:54] [Jasmine] And in there, you advocate for -- you empower each other to advocate in your daily lives, right?

[00:08:02] [Ray] Yes.

[00:08:03] [Jasmine] And because you are all people that use Christian Horizon services, you as a group advocate to Christian Horizons for better care and better systems and better policies.

[00:08:14] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:08:14] [Jasmine] And you serve on a few different committees with different managers and employees to try to make Christian Horizons better.

[00:08:20] [Ray] Yes.

[00:08:21] [Jasmine] And as in your group, your Our Voices Matter group and you personally, you also advocate to the government to make the community better.

[Ray] Yes.

[Jasmine] I know you frequently email your MP and your MPP, is that right?

[Ray] Yeah,

[Jasmine] Yeah. On all sorts of things. And your MP actually knows you by name because you've had such long correspondence with him through email.

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] Which has been really great because then when the Our Voices Matter group has written a letter and sent it to multiple MPs, we hear back from yours and he actually wrote a letter on the group's behalf to the Minister. Partly because the group was advocating.

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] But also because you personally have been advocating and have built a relationship with him.

[00:09:06] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:09:07] [Jasmine] He was able to hear the group's request much more quickly than some of the other MPPs that we wrote to. So that shows how you advocate for yourself, but also for others. Because you advocate individually and also collaboratively with a group. Yeah. And you've been doing that way longer than I've known you.

[00:09:29] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:09:29] [Jasmine] Yeah. I also know that you are watching out for what other people might need beyond what you might need. Yes. I know last, last week you were in a meeting and you guys were asked to review some posters and give input, right?

[00:09:45] [Ray] Yes.

[00:09:46] [Jasmine] And you brought up that there should be also French language posters for people who speak French, which I thought was a great example of this advocacy. Cause you don't speak French and yet you know that that is a need that exists. So it, I know that you are always aware of both what, like what Chantel said, the things that you need, but also the things that others need. So people can't see your body language, but we can, and your body language is a big part of your communicating. You're very enthusiastically agreeing with what we're saying, right? [Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] Yeah.

[00:10:22] [Keith] Excellent. No, I think it's really helpful to hear some of the work that you're each doing and then also how you've been involved in this over the years as well. Yeah. It's been really helpful to hear from both of you kind of what that looks look like in your lives. The next question we were wondering about and the podcast is on disability and the Canadian church. And so we're talking about self-advocacy and advocacy more generally. But for some of us, we may not have had that much experience with advocacy or, or self-advocacy or what that might or might not look like in church contexts. So let's go back to basics for a second and ask, what does self-advocacy mean to you? Like, what does, what does that look like? Or maybe go back to Ray here for a moment. And I know Ray, you shared some words with us where he said, I am very powerful when I advocate. And I thought that was really helpful that you shared that with us.

[00:11:24] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:11:25] [Keith] And I know I met, I met you, I think it might have been for the first time we were having a, a Christmas party and I had a chance to meet you and, and I felt like I, I knew so much about you already because of all your advocacy work. And so I haven't had a lot of chance to hang out with you as you've been advocating for different things. But it was, it was really neat to see all the effects that you're having in your community and with Christian Horizons and with other organizations, as well. So I can see that sense of power and the difference that you're making there.

[00:12:04] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:12:06] [Keith] And Chantel, over to you. What, what does self-advocacy look to you, look like to you? Or, or mean to you?

[00:12:13] [Chantel] Yeah. Well, not to sound like a broken record or a broken podcast as it will, but I think self-advocacy is as much about myself as it is about making the world better for others or the church or the workplace or whatever that looks like. And I think self-advocacy in my mind isn't about making myself necessarily have privileges that others do not. But at least I'm pushing for equity and levelling the playing field.

[00:12:44] [Keith] Do you feel like it's almost a misnomer, like when we talk about self-advocacy, self really features prominently there, but what I hear you saying is that it, it changes or it transforms the community for everyone, right? So when you're advocating Yes, part, a piece of that might be for your own needs or for your own contributions, but it sounds like a big piece of that is often to change the structures of our community to welcome and include more people. Would that be accurate?

[00:13:14] [Chantel] Yeah. Well, and I get where the word self comes from in self-advocacy 'cause it's kind of like a pushback against the nothing about us, without us, right? It's, it's not someone else advocating for me, it's me advocating for myself and others. So in that sense, I'm not against the word self in self-advocacy, but it is a bit of a misnomer, I think, like you said. And I think the biggest example of that is I'm from a Christian perspective, Christ or the Holy Spirit is the advocate. And he never in his life ever advocated for himself. Right? It was always for the betterment of the world.

[00:13:56] [Keith] Yeah, it's really helpful.

[00:13:58] [Jasmine] So why is self-advocacy important to you? I think you both have touched on it, but Ray, you emailed us some words for this. You said, it is important to me because it's part of my life. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't have any of what I have now.

[00:14:15] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:14:15] [Jasmine] And you, you shared a story to illustrate that. Would you like me to read your story?

[00:14:20] [Ray] Yeah. Yes.

[00:14:22] [Jasmine] Okay. You said I advocated at the time when I got into Christian Horizons. When we moved to Ottawa, that was about 12 years ago now. Is that right? Right.

[00:14:32] [Ray] Yes.

[00:14:33] [Jasmine] When we moved to Ottawa, I moved to a group home with another agency. It was great because I can chat with your housemates and they chatted with me. We had fun, especially over dinner times, but it was only about a year when the director told us that they had to tear down the group home because the government had told them to build assisted living apartments. Everyone was upset, of course, she made a lot of promises that we could still see each other and there would be a TV room, but it didn't happen. So then I started emailing my MPP about group homes. And that's how you found Christian Horizons, right?

[00:15:12] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:15:14] [Jasmine] So that's a great example showing why it's important to you because you've had real change in your life from advocating. Chantel. Do you have a similar story or an example that you could share about why self-advocacy is important to you?

[00:15:30] [Chantel] Yeah, I do. Self-advocacy is first and foremost important because oppression exists and oppression of people of varying abilities especially exists. And I know in my own life I often struggle with the line between is this something in the environment or in the culture that I am meant to adapt to? Or is this something in the environment or the culture that I'm meant to adjust or shift or advocate for different, and most recently where I felt very impacted by that, I became a Regional Council member in Waterloo, loving my role there was very stunned by the length of council meetings and the fact that most people, you know, when they have to use the washroom, got out, got up and went to the washroom whenever they needed to and came back as quickly as possible so that they could vote and continue contributing and so forth. For me, that's a little bit different because I have to coordinate with PSW and things take a lot, a little bit longer. And so I was really stuck with, well if I advocate for scheduled washroom breaks, let's say, will that make me more of an annoyance to the council in general, or less of a council member per se.

[00:17:01] [Chantel] I got up the courage to write an email and really it shouldn't have taken a lot of courage at all. That email explaining my experience was very well received and within 24 hours mandatory, quote-unquote bio breaks of 20 to 30 minutes were instilled in our schedule, which for me allows just enough time to take a washroom break when I needed. But for others, they felt very empowered to not only use the washroom but make a phone call or check in with home. And so the result of that was, first of all, I witnessed that, or rather, first of all, I was very thankful that the council didn't out me. It wasn't like, Hey, we need to take a break so Chantel can go meet her PSW. It was, we're all gonna take a bio break. Secondly, because no one knew it was necessarily me who said, so this is an issue for me. Then I got to witness behind the scenes the benefits that I had of other people saying, oh, I'm so glad we get to take a 20-minute break at four o'clock cause I really need to make a phone call. Or I really need to take a walk or I really need to use the washroom. So unexpected benefits, I think.

[00:18:42] [Keith] Yeah, well it's such a great example and it goes back to what you were talking about before as well about how self-advocacy is not only for you, but it's for others. It's for people, right? And I think that example highlights how humanizing our spaces, humanizing our communities, makes such a difference, right? I'm sure there were people that were scrambling before, just entirely focused on productivity at their council meetings without that space to be able to think, oh, I wonder how my families are doing right now. I should check in with them. Or, you know, maybe I can touch base with somebody on, or maybe I can just have that, that human connection point with somebody and say hi, and then check in with them, right? Those types of things that can be transformative in our experiences. And I think it's also a powerful example and maybe a challenge to church communities to hear how the council responded to that as well. If I think about needs when they're raised in our church communities, how are those responded to? Are they seen as an opportunity to change the way that things work so that they work for everyone? Or are they seen as, oh, this is, this is gonna change everything, right? We have to have more time for X, Y, or Z.

[00:19:56] [Chantel] And I suspect the group of people that we're talking with right now who are listening to us on this podcast, thank you for listening, everyone, our, our number one, a group of seasoned advocates who often feel like a pain in the butt and wonder if they should advocate for things or not and say,

[Ray] Yeah.

[Chantel] Yeah. Secondly, people who you know are, are kinda teetering on the fence of like, should I, is this worthy to advocate for should I speak up or stand up or do something about this and know that, like that that teetering on the fence doesn't end right with everything that I I speak to or advocate for, I teeter with, is this worthy of my time and effort and is this something that God would want me to? And thankfully I thought my washroom breaks were worthy of time and effort because apparently others did too. I how can be productive in a 14-hour council meeting straight? But we don't do that anymore.

[00:21:12] [Keith] Yeah, and like you're saying that work of advocacy can be so important, so crucial to remind us of our humanness, of our, of our needs, but also making space for us to contribute to the best of our abilities, right? If, if we don't have those breaks, if we don't have those pauses, then we're not gonna be able to engage very well in the conversations or the work that's ahead of us. And this kind of ties into another question that we had is around, and you were referencing this before as well, Chantel, is that people speaking for themselves speak, people speaking to their own needs is so, is so crucial that that's not always being interpreted through other people, but, but there is a place for a community for other people in a church, et cetera to come alongside and support in different ways.

[00:22:09] [Keith] I know, Ray, we, we talked to you about this and, and asked how can people come alongside self-advocates. And you were suggesting that helping to set up, you said they can help us set up if people need it. And I loved how you phrased that. I'll, I'll say a bit of what that means to me. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, say, say if I'm off base here. But when I think of the Our Voice Matter advocacy group, I know a lot of the work that Jasmine and others have done is really to create a space for you and others to come together, share, share your perspectives, have that heard and have that go forward to make a difference. To make changes some way.

[Ray] Yeah.

[Keith] Yeah. And, and it seems like, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like that's been quite helpful to have a space for that, right?

[00:23:04] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:23:05] [Keith] And and the other thing that I see in, in what you've said here is helping to set up that space also implies that you kind of step back when people are -- so allies will step back when, when people, people are there to speak for themselves or to advocate for themselves and not taking over everything, but kind of helping to set that up. Is that, is that kinda what you're getting at?

[Ray] Yeah.

[Keith] Yeah, I think that's so helpful. And you say that it's also important, this is something you sent to us, it's really important that people don't make decisions for you, that don't make decisions for self-advocates, but have that, that conversation or that dialogue or work together to figure out what that, that should look like.

[00:23:54] [Jasmine] If I can add with that, Ray, I know that your work and self-advocacy, you have allies in lots of different ways. People that are helping you set up, there's like Keith talked about, people like me and the others who actually help with your group, right? So I'm on the Zoom call with you and you know, taking notes for your group, but then there's also the staff at your home that make sure that you have a computer open and that you're connected to Zoom and that your microphone works and, and allies in all of these places are equally important because if you didn't have somebody logging you on to like this, this podcast today, the staff in your home made sure it was in the calendar, made sure that they had a computer ready for you and you needed it and you worked with them to set it up. And we're so appreciative of that. And then there's allies like Keith and I who wanna listen and get your story out there, but all are important.

[Ray] Yeah.

[00:24:59] [Chantel] So, so I I love, I love talking about how allies can support advocates and self-advocates and I love the thought of setup. Thank you Ray. That's such a good, it's such a good setup and it's exactly, that's the point, I think. And just to go back to my earlier comment cuz I think this relates, when you hear somebody advocating for something, your knee-jerk reaction might be, oh, there they go being a pain, pain in the butt again, right? But remember that before they've thought of bringing this to anyone's attention, including yours, they've probably teetered with, do I have any right to bring this up? Is that all worthy of anyone's attention or am I gonna be seen as just the pain in the butt again? So to take people seriously ongoing and to refrain from writing them off as much as possible.

[00:26:03] [Ray] Amen.

[00:26:06] [Keith] Well, and I, I want to pick up on that because it can be hard to bring up things, especially if you feel like you're, this the squeaky wheel or whatever. And, and some of us, I know for myself I have, I have a critical mind that's always looking for how things can be better, which is a blessing and a curse. So help us think Chantel and Ray, how do you, what spaces are easier to bring things up in? I think for instance, inviting feedback surveys is one way to do that. It's maybe not the most enjoyable way to do that all the time, but touching base with people after an event, maybe, and saying, Hey, how did that go? Even better, asking ahead of an event or a church service or a change in programming or whatever that looks like, checking in with people and saying, Hey, is this gonna work? Is, is are the things that we could do in advance to prepare better? Those are a couple of thoughts that come to mind, but what ways can our communities be more receptive to that, that feedback?

[00:27:07] [Chantel] I have two thoughts and then maybe Ray will have something to contribute as well. So I recently had a conversation with a pastor who referred to themselves as a recovering ableist, before they said, please tell us how you enjoy our, our church and what the experience has been for you and how can we improve and what can, what can we do better. And the fact that he, first of all, not defaced himself, but brought himself lower by referring to himself as recovering ableist, noting that A, he was aware of the problem of ableism and B he wasn't above it. And then encouraging me to give honest feedback. That was a huge piece. The other spaces in my life in which I've been most open are spaces where others have led. And so prior to the reading circle with Ray and Jasmine, I never would've imagined a reading circle. I commonly wished I could read books, but just didn't read them if I couldn't access them on audio. It wasn't a book for me.

[00:28:21] [Chantel] But it was because, I think in the initial phase of getting to know Jasmine, I thought I, I saw her being very open, like offering visual reminders of what her disability looks like and also speaking about it very openly. And then having the invitation to say, hey, would you speak, I have this book club. I kinda think kind of very off the cuff, I kinda just said, yeah, I would love to speak at your book club, but you'll have to read me the book first cause I have no way of accessing it. I don't know, Jasmine, maybe it happened a little bit differently than that for you, but just opening the door to being honest about what we are and what we're not capable of doing.

[00:29:13] [Jasmine] Yeah, I, I find that as well. And it's funny that you, you were telling me that as we were preparing this podcast, you were telling me that me being open about my barriers and my access needs has made you feel more comfortable sometimes to ask for what you need. But I feel the same in reverse because I've known you longer than I've been disabled. And so I've seen you for years advocating for yourself and your access needs, which gave me permission to advocate for myself once I gained a disability. And so I think, yeah, like you said, learn where other people are already leading in that it's easier to follow an example that's been set, but I also think the, the relationship and the mentorship of one person with disabilities to another can be really helpful to build those advocacy skills. And so I've been really grateful for all the people in my life that have mentored me in what it is to live with disability and how to advocate.

[00:30:11] [Chantel] I think one of the things I treasure most about our reading circle, and Ray, I really wanna involve you in this too, so make sure that you contribute what you want to contribute. But I think one of the biggest blessings of it for me is that there's no ideal of normalcy, right? There's, there's Jasmine who, to put it totally politically incorrectly, Jasmine can't breathe, I can't speak, I can't walk a right or see like, like there's no normality there at all. But it's, it's normal because it's normal that we're all there together and somehow make it work.

[Ray] Yeah

[00:30:54] [Jasmine] I think to answer the question that Keith started us off on this topic is, in what spaces is it easier to advocate? Ray, something that you and I have talked about a lot through emails or you've mentioned a lot through emails, is when people take the time to talk with you and to listen to you--

[Ray] Yes.

[Jasmine] -- you feel much more comfortable to share what your thoughts are and what your needs are. Is that --

[00:31:22] [Ray] Yes,

[00:31:23] [Jasmine] You will frequently tell me by name the people in your life that take the time to listen and that you really appreciate that space they're creating and the time they give you so that you can speak up.

[00:31:36] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:31:38] [Jasmine] And I think that's what our reading circle did for the three of us. It was every week we met together and we had an allotted amount of time and we gave each other that space to speak. So I think that's one of the, the tips is just giving time, consistent commitment of time and allowing relationships to build creates spaces for people to feel safe enough to speak up and to have the opportunity to speak up.

[Ray] Yes.

[00:32:08] [Chantel] Ray, I love that you note and you recognize the people that give you space to speak because I, I can relate to that in the sense of like, the day after I was elected to council, I kinda was, was really overwhelmed and scared because running for council is a lot different than working on council and how am I gonna get all this work done and what, you know, what about all these barriers and so on and so forth. And I wrote an extremely long, extremely detailed email thinking that, well, they're only gonna read one-quarter of it, so if it's really long, they'll, they'll probably catch something important, you know? And I was really surprised, I'm almost like overwhelmed with shock when they called me an hour later and said, Chantel, just to reassure you we're gonna do everything. And I said, what do you mean we're gonna do every we read your email, we'll have it fixed in 48 hours? I was like, well, like that doesn't happen. But the fact that it wasn't rejected out of the gate made me all the more inclined to say, you know, maybe they won't hate me for asking for a washroom break every four or five hours.

[Ray] Yeah.

[00:33:32] [Jasmine] On this topic of giving space to speak. Ray, you, you type using your headrest and you have a computer that speaks the words out loud for you. I wanna check, do you have anything that you want to type and say?

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] Have you been typing already?

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] Is it ready to go now? Not yet. Okay. Do you wanna take some time to finish working on it?

[Ray] Yeah. Should we pause the conversation or should we keep going while you type?

[00:34:06] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:34:07] [Jasmine] Okay. And we'll check back in in a few minutes.

[Ray] Okay. Yes.

[Jasmine] Okay.

[00:34:12] [Keith] So I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about recently has been how do we create a culture of advocacy, a culture where people are not afraid to bring forward concerns, but actually feel like those are valued and valued not only for the person themselves, but for the broader community that -- and we know that chances are, if somebody has a concern, if somebody has a need, then they're gonna be others in the congregation or in the community who either have that need or who have a similar need. Right? When we think of, we've been talking a lot about time and I do wanna encourage John Swindon's Becoming Friends of Time as a book that helps us to think how, how time impacts our lives, and then how, how we shape time in a way that's either really receptive to others or makes life difficult for others quite honestly.

[00:35:10] [Keith] But as we're thinking about advocacy, Ray had me mentioned something here that I wanted to bring forward that we had asked how, how churches can be involved in this, how churches can help shape a culture of advocacy basically. And Ray, you said the church can let church leadership know what things are not accessible and then they can help us to advocate. And, and I love that you brought forward the role of leadership in communities and the leader may or may not be disabled themselves, but whatever role you find yourself in, how do you, how are you a part of that picture? And I know so often in church communities when the pastor or a ministry leader or children's leader helps to model, being receptive to feedback and, and kind of approaching that in a humble way helps to model normalizing different ways of engaging with the service or with the, the children's ministry or what have you, when they work to help ex address things that aren't accessible. That makes such a difference to everyone in the congregation. 'Cause everybody starts to feel like, oh yeah, they will listen to me, they will respond, they will engage with me in meaningful ways. So I wanted to thank you for that Ray and for sharing that.

[00:36:33] [Jasmine] Can I, Ray, can I help you tell a story about church?

[Ray] Yes.

[Jasmine] Do you remember the book club? So the church that I attend had a children's book club and they were reading a book about a girl with disabilities because our church had a month-long series on disability and they invited you to come as a guest speaker.

[00:36:55] [Ray] Yes.

[00:36:57] [Jasmine] And that, that was a great way to advocate just by inviting you into the space and getting you to connect with the kids and they could ask you any questions they had for you.

[00:37:09] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:37:09] [Jasmine] And I thought they were gonna ask you questions about disability, but they didn't, did they?

[00:37:16] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:37:17] [Jasmine] They asked typical kid questions, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite animal? Things like that. And it was just a really great opportunity for them to get to know somebody who might be different from them.

[00:37:30] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:37:33] [Jasmine] And to learn a new way of communicating, right? Because you typed out all your answers and they waited patiently to hear what you had to say and they were very interested. I think that's a really great concrete example of church advocating just by -- starting by understanding.

[00:37:55] [Chantel] I've never heard or put together the fact that advocacy starts with understanding, but I think Jasmine's really hit on something there. And I know for myself, like I receive government support in order to have PSWs help me with personal care and a couple of other, the tasks of daily living that I need, but I don't receive paid support for things like advocacy work. And so I think that the church is an excellent source of informal support and can forward the initiatives of people with and without disabilities alike. And I think also church is a place where it's okay to fail, not only because Jesus forgives us all, but because because it's less like a paid work environment, right? And so there's less of this emphasis, or there should be less of this emphasis on competing for the best job in the church, whatever. Church was a place where I could try out different skills and see which ones worked and which ones didn't. And where if it didn't work, people still loved me and still encouraged me to do other things.

[00:39:25] [Keith] Can you imagine if the church was just a no pressure zone? I mean, I think we all need those kinds of spaces where you're not feeling pressured to be somebody other than yourself. Right? And I would, I would love for us to work as churches in Canada, but also around the world, to be no pressure zones. Like to me that's, that's what grace looks like. Grace looks like being able to try things, being able to say things sometimes, and then being able to take them back later because I've decided I've disagreed with myself. Right. Or being able to put something in one way and then, and then have watch people like, think about it and be like, well, no, I think what I meant was -- right, to be able to, to try things out, to be there for each other, to be committed to each other, to build trust with each other. Yeah. I love, I love how you, you shared about that Chantel,

[00:40:20] [Chantel] There were many churches in my life who didn't really empower me to do many things. They thought first and foremost that they were there to serve me. And secondly, whatever I did might end up in a mess. And it's true, I spill milk all the time, that's why I don't pour it. But one church in my young adulthood, they said, we're gonna cancel or we're gonna cancel vbs unless someone steps up to lead it. No pun intended. And I was the only person to put my hand up to lead vacation Bible school and, you know, 20 years old or something like this. And they went for it. They gave me a budget of a bunch of supplies and they said, tell us what to do and we'll volunteer for you. And like, I mean, it wasn't the most perfect bible school, but without my quote-unquote initiative, it would've been cancelled altogether. And without the church's endorsements, it wouldn't, it wouldn't, wouldn't have got it got off the ground. So we needed each other to make it work. Chantel, I think you said something

[00:41:32] [Jasmine] Really important there is that churches in your experience have sometimes thought that they were there to serve you, to minister to you, but the example you gave was a church that was very quick to recognize your gifts and empower you to minister alongside others in the church. And I think that is a really great example of churches advocating for full inclusion and belonging and participation of people with disabilities is that idea of co-labouring, partnering, ministering together, recognizing that everybody has gifts to bring people with disabilities and without, can equally serve and be served and minister to and, you know, be ministered, get ministry from and, you know, work together as a team.

[00:42:20] [Chantel] I agree, Jasmine, but, and I just wanna underscore the reciprocity of that because I've also seen it where, not necessarily in church but school or whatever, where I have this idea and I wanna run with it. And so people say, okay, go run with it. And they forget that I can't run. And inevitably the idea falls flat and it's not necessarily because the idea wasn't viable in the first place, but it's very hard for any one person to run things on their own. It's very hard for one person that has disabilities that others don't or disadvantages or whatever you wanna call them to, to get something off the ground.

[00:43:08] [Keith] Just wanted to check back in with Ray if you had, if now is a good time to, to share what you were writing or --

[00:43:15] [Ray] Hey.

[00:43:16] [Jasmine] Are you still typing Ray?

[00:43:18] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:43:19] [Jasmine] Oh, this is a long one.

[00:43:22] [Keith] Well, we look forward to it.

[00:43:24] [Jasmine] Okay. We've, we've been talking about why advocacy in the church is important in terms of practical reasons, but we also know that advocacy in the church is important because we see it in scripture. Chantel, you're a chaplain and you know, scripture. Can you think of any verses or examples that give us a biblical precedent for why churches should be advocating alongside people that may have extra needs or access needs?

[00:43:55] [Chantel] I would be glad to do that, but not just 'cause I'm a chaplain, I know that you know these things too, and you're not a chaplain. So yeah, I think throughout scripture we see, we see Jesus advocating for the people who are, are marginalized or decentered all the way through, in particular, I love the verse that says the Spirit intercedes or advocates for us in with, with groans that, that we cannot understand. So even before I know what's right in the world, the Holy Spirit knows it and is working together with me. And so even though advocacy or self-advocacy as it were, can seem very lonely because you might be the only one or the only small group that's standing up for this thing that everyone else thinks this nonsense like a washroom break or whatever it might be. I take a lot of courage and solace from the fact that Jesus or Jesus' Holy Spirit does it with me. And one of the very first verses that I learned that I think relates really well to advocacy is Proverbs 31: 8 & 9, Jasmine, do you wanna read that for us?

[00:45:21] [Jasmine] "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly defend the rights of the poor."

[00:45:30] [Chantel] So I was born two months prematurely and many people in that circumstance do not have the ability to articulate with words or verbally. And so again, my family instilled in me the fact that God has enabled you this capacity to be able to speak means that you have to take it seriously and you have to steward it, really, you have to think, think before you speak and, and speak about what you think. And so, yeah, I just think that as Christians, as people that are hopefully in continuous relationship with Jesus Christ, we have a responsibility to activate or advocate for what Jesus tells us is right

[00:46:21] [Jasmine] To connect those two verses that you just talked about. Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. But we also heard that the Holy Spirit intercedes through wordless groans. So not necessarily using language. And I think if we can connect those two ideas, speaking up is not always with articulate, eloquent, public speaking from the front on the stage language speaking up can be in whatever way you communicate, right?

[Ray] Right.

[Jasmine] There, there can be powerful communication with and without words. And I think all those kinds of speaking up is important.

[00:46:59] [Keith] So, I feel the temptation sometimes in our circles and our churches to almost distinguish between people who need to advocate or people who need accessibility or, and, and those who maybe don't need it or who can get by based on whatever the current system is. And I think that's, that's really a challenging way to think. And it kind of excludes those who bring back feedback or say something could be changed to be better. But what strikes me is there's the verse, I think you alluded to this before, Chantel 1 John 2:1 is talking about if, if I write to you so that you will not sin, this is John talking, but if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. And what I love about the potential of following Christ is that we all need advocacy. We all need someone to go before us. We all are unable to give a defence on our behalf to God the Father, to say, you know what we need. And you also referred to the Spirit groaning in our weaknesses and this verse about Jesus being our Advocate. So how does that, for you, Chantel, how does that change our approach in the church to advocacy? Does that, does that shift our perspective?

[00:48:24] [Chantel] Well, I'm gonna go away and try to figure out who needs to advocate for themselves and who doesn't and who should be justified in advocating for themselves and who shouldn't be. But I think you're right. I think sin is a great equalizer, right? You know, like ability and disability. I was talking about the level playing field and how disparate that can be. But even though I'm in a wheelchair, I do things that Jesus doesn't like. And even though you are not in a wheelchair, you do things that Jesus doesn't like. And the fact of the matter is, and the reason that it's okay to, to fail or to fall sometimes not that failure is a sin, but it's a less than perfection is because Jesus, the Advocate, will intercede for our forgiveness and ultimately acceptance. So that's pretty awesome. I like being on an equal playing field with you.

[00:49:29] [Keith] It's good and it's, it is good to know too that, that we can just as Jesus advocates for us, we can advocate for each other too, right? It might not be in the area of moral shortcoming, but whatever that area is that we need some assistance to advocate for coming together in solidarity to work on those things together makes it not quite so isolating as well if we see that change is needed in the church.

[00:49:56] [Chantel] Yeah, I think you're right. I think as we see Jesus advocating for others and showing solidarity with them, and we're called to become more Christ-like as our faith walk progresses, then we're called to do that too. But also I think note that Jesus didn't do those kind of things apart from us, right? Like, like the, the nothing about us without us applies to Jesus too, in the sense of like, he came, he doesn't just advocate for us from heaven's, heaven's, throne. He came down to earth and advocated for us in body as well as in spirit. So when you're advocating for others, make sure that as much as possible you're doing it with them.

[00:50:53] [Keith] Yeah. And we see that in Jesus' interactions when he was here on earth too, right? Checking in with people to say, Hey, do you wish to be made well, right? Is this something that you're looking for or not? And that, that -

[Chantel] What can I do for you?

[Keith] Exactly. I think that's an important reminder.

[00:51:12] [Chantel] And I think I, I think as a person with disabilities, I really had to learn that it was okay to answer that question, what can I do for you? And then I didn't have to say, oh, nothing, it's fine that I could actually list manageable things that people could do to better my life. And then I could give them a list of things or maybe not a list of things, but a combination of things of these are some of the skills that I have or the ways that I can better your life.

[00:51:45] [Keith] That really goes back to the reciprocity piece you were talking about before too, right? Where people are able to share their gifts with one another. Share, share what you have and receive and return for what our needs are. So crucial.

[00:52:00] [Chantel] Jesus gives and receives our love.

[00:52:03] [Jasmine] Are we ready for Ray? Do you have your sentence finished?

[00:52:15] [Ray via computer] I was afraid to speak up because I would be punished. Since I moved to CH[Christian Horizons] I feel like I can speak up. Especially with you, Jasmine.

[00:52:20] [Jasmine] Okay. I caught the beginning part, you said I'm afraid to speak up. And then you talked about when you moved at Christian Horizons. I didn't catch the last part. Can you play it again?

[00:52:30] [Ray via computer] I was afraid to speak up because I would be punished. Since I moved to CH I feel like I can speak up. Especially with you, Jasmine.

[00:52:39] [Jasmine] Since you moved at ch you feel like you can speak up through Christian through our voices matter. Did you say that and --

[00:52:48] [Chantel] Is it especially with you, Jasmine?

[00:52:49] [Jasmine] Yeah. I heard that at the end, especially with Jasmine. I just -- in the middle. It's so fast. I'm missing pieces. Would you? I turned my volume up all the way. Would you play it one more time?

[00:53:06] [Ray via computer] I was afraid to speak up because I would be punished. Since I moved to CH I feel like I can speak up. Especially with you, Jasmine.

[00:53:15] [Jasmine] I'm missing like two words. You said. I'm afraid to speak up because I feel like I will be

[00:53:23] [Chantel] Pushed out or watched, pushed out.

[00:53:26] [Keith] It wasn't punished, was it?

[Ray] Yeah.

[Keith] Okay.

[00:53:31] [Jasmine] Good interpretation. You feel like you'll be punished. Okay. And was that before coming to Christian Horizons?

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] And now at Christian Horizons. Do you still feel that way?

[00:53:41] [Ray] No.

[00:53:42] [Jasmine] Okay. Okay. That's great. I'm glad that you feel a difference and that you're in a place in your life now where you feel like you've been empowered to speak up without fear of punishment or consequences.

[Ray] Yeah.

[Jasmine] That's awesome. That is what we want. Thanks for, thanks for telling us that, Ray.

[00:54:09] [Keith] I think that's the kind of environment that we're all looking for, right? Where, where anybody can, can speak up and not have a sense of fear, right? Whether that's our church communities or our, the communities that we live in, our neighbourhoods, council communities, whatever, whatever situation you find yourself in.

[00:54:28] [Ray] Yeah.

[00:54:29] [Keith] Chantel, you've shared before how advocacy, self-advocacy, it can be exhausting, right? It can be challenging, it can be difficult, especially when maybe when you're encountering barriers, but, but also just the work of figuring out how to phrase things, how to bring things forward, the potential of getting pushback, maybe meeting with resistance, all those types of things. How, how do you recommend that either, for self-advocates or for church communities? How do we, how do we find that rest? Or how can we create spaces of rest for people?

[00:55:03] [Chantel] Keith, thank you for bringing that up and because even just talking about self-advocacy for an hour, like I'm, I'm tired now and we've only talked about it. We haven't really done it yet. And the, I mean, church is an interesting intersection, right? Because in one sense, God has gifted me to advocate at church as much as he's asked me to advocate anywhere else in my life. But at the same time, by the time I get to, to Sun after doing all of the advocacy that I've done in all of the other circles that I'm a part of, sometimes I just wanna relax. And in fact, like Psalm 23 talks about like he leads us by quiet and still waters, right? And green pastures, unrest and all of that. And one of the hugest attributes of the congregation that I'm part of currently, that I would consider very accessible for me by the time, by the time I got there, they already had an automatic door. They didn't need elevators, they already had large print bulletins and all kinds of extra things that allowed me to relax and participate without thinking about it in ways that I couldn't do in other spheres of my life.

[00:56:30] [Keith] Yeah. And those, and coming across those almost sends a signal or a message that it's okay to mention those things here. Like this is something that we prioritize and, and maybe even that gives some more room to, to know that you're not gonna maybe meet with the same amount of resistance that you do in other places.

[00:56:48] [Chantel] Well, the sense of like, I'm not an anomaly because I need a large print liturgy. Like I had never seen that in another church, so.

[00:56:58] [Keith] Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I love that. Well, thank you Chantel and Ray for your time together. It's been so meaningful and helpful for us all. And we typically check in with people about ways that we can stay connected, right? And I know that you each do advocacy work, you each do, you are involved in groups in that way too. And I know Jasmine and I are available as well to speak with church communities. So feel free, listeners, to reach out to us at ministry@christian-horizons.org, that email address will be in the notes as well for this show. We're happy to continue the conversation and as well, if you want to check out writing and reflections from Ray and Chantel, do visit the Disability and Faith Forum at disabilityandfaith.org. Thanks again each for your time together and your insights today. If you like today's episode, please take a moment to review us on Apple Podcasts or other platforms. It helps people to find this podcast. And why not share this episode with a friend? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Send us an email at ministry@christian-horizons.org.

[00:58:14] [Jasmine] This podcast has been brought to you by Christian Horizons and is part of the New Leaf Podcast Network. Christian Horizons is a faith-based organization out of Canada. We serve people with intellectual and developmental disabilities in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and in several countries around the world through Christian Horizons Global. You can find more information about us at christianhorizons.org. Special thanks to Tim Bratton and to the New Leaf Podcast Network team and to you for listening.

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